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Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

nytimes.com

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Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#421

Post by gjm11 »

danssig wrote: post #415
iwwr wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point being? Sorry if I'm being dense, but no market is truly elastic.

Not true. I don't have to buy a smart phone, for example. I can live a wonderfully productive life with a normal cell phone. This means the price we see for a smart phone tracks very close to its value. You cannot do without health care. If you get sick you will pay any and every price to get well. If you die, your money is worthless anyway. A market you cannot opt out of is inelastic and normal free market forces wo…

You cannot do without food either, but food markets are pretty elastic because you can do without food from any particular seller. If there's a variety of healthcare providers of reasonable quality then the usual market mechanisms can work.

Which isn't to say either (1) that they actually do work well in, say, the USA, or (2) that some less free-market-based system mightn't work better. (I'm in the UK; the situation in the US looks absolutely horrifying to me. I don't know what an ideal healthcare system looks like, but it surely can't be that.)

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#422

Post by danssig »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #418
danssig wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The phrase "market elasticity" is meaningless. Nonsensical. What kind of market theory are you following that doesn't factor in market elasticity? Rush Limbaugh eco 101?

Market theory as I was taught at university during my degree. And you? As I said the term elasticity isn't meaningless, but without defining the variables you are defining as elastic (or inelastic) it doesn't make sense, at least not without assumptions which obviously may or may be wrong. Personally by default I'd assume that you were referring to price elasticity of demand - that is the relationship between changes…

If you have a degree in economics then you should know very well that health care can not function properly in a laissez faire market. Customers cannot simply "opt out" of health care.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#423

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

danssig wrote: post #422
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market theory as I was taught at university during my degree. And you? As I said the term elasticity isn't meaningless, but without defining the variables you are defining as elastic (or inelastic) it doesn't make sense, at least not without assumptions which obviously may or may be wrong. Personally by default I'd assume that you were referring to price elasticity of demand - that is the relationship between changes…

If you have a degree in economics then you should know very well that health care can not function properly in a laissez faire market. Customers cannot simply "opt out" of health care.

I've not said anything about what I believe in this area (certainly not in this section of the thread), I've merely questioned your use of the term "market elasticity" and what exactly you mean by it.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#424

Post by _delirium »

cookiecaper wrote: post #348
Zak wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presently, no American hospital publishes its price list. Almost every American hospital publishes its price list to its primary customers: the insurance companies. The problem as I see it is that the insurance companies are the only entities that can get fair prices for health care, and they want to keep it that way. A potential solution would be to ban insurance discounts; a health-care provider could charge any pr…

My experience has been that if you don't have insurance, the hospital will cut a big chunk out of your bill immediately. Their "negotiated rates" are all just made up things they put on the insurance bill because insurers can pay a lot of money. The insurer calls and says "Hello, I would like a discount". And the guy says "Ah, yes, our standard rate is cash rate + $1000, but for you, I'll take off $500". For instance…

A bigger problem I have is that it's hard to get this information ahead of time. Hospitals don't want to tell you, if you come in for this operation and are willing to pay cash, total cost will be $x (and it should be total cost, including rooms, drugs, anesthesiologist, surgeon, nurses, etc.). If you could get that quote, you could comparison-shop hospitals ahead of time.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#425

Post by dalore »

damoncali wrote: post #201
muhfuhkuh wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan forces their doctors to charge only what's published in a book that the government issues and negotiates prices periodically. Simple price fixing in an otherwise private healthcare market. In return, Japanese doctors and hospitals (FYI, there are more private hospitals in Japan than the US) are allowed to set whatever prices for ancillary services (like private or semi-private rooms) that they want. BTW, the av…

What people don't like to admit is that free markets don't work for healthcare. What is the price you're willing to pay for curing that tumor in your gut? Everything you have. There is no supply vs. demand. Only supply vs infinity. What would happen to the food market were it not for the generally high supply of food? It wouldn't be pretty. Because of that, some sort of non-market intervention is simply unavoidable.…

The free market does work in healthcare, you just need a government option as a baseline. If someone wants better care then the socialized healthcare, they are free to pay. That's the system in England and Australia.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#426

Post by giardini »

georgieporgie wrote: post #156
dgabriel wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of catastrophic insurance if they can drop you when you need it? It seems like you're paying for nothing.

It's a gamble. I imagine that the risk of being dropped is directly proportional to the amount of attention I garner. Break a leg? Probably not a big deal. Get cancer? Better look out.

"Get cancer? Better look out."

Of course! There is no real cure for cancer: look at the 5-year survival statistics.

But there _are_ innumerable agencies and non-profits that will take your last dollar and promise you "hope". They will do this for you or for your child who has cancer. Their purpose is to make money. Amazingly, people will spend their last dollar to "cure" their own cancer. To "save" their children they will borrow money against their future or that of their relatives and friends.

We spend most of our medical dollars trying to put off the inevitable (death from old age and cancer). Instead we should learn, as a nation, that it is OK to die, hopefully gracefully, if a bit sooner.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#427

Post by tertius »

_delirium wrote: post #386
tertius wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your health insurance should have this service. I'm with Aetna and I can get lists of MDs within a 10 mile radius and I can get a price list of common procedures.

True, but I was talking about the case where I don't have health insurance and want to price-shop for cash service. =]

I'm sure you can pick up the phone and call the doctors which are recommended to you.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#428

Post by pzxc »

natep wrote: post #410
pzxc wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's wrong in a very unfortunate Founding Fathers way also. Because the Declaration of Independence states that we DO have inalienable rights and they ARE natural laws (i.e., endowed by our creator, which is a religious way of saying natural law).

The Declaration of Independence says it, so it must be true? The DoI is, among other things, a social contract that most Americans have agreed to, which is exactly what ThomPete said.

My point is that saying the belief is Ayn-Randian is disingenuous, because a lot of founding fathers believed that also. But I guess it's easier to diss on Ayn Rand than it is on Thomas Jefferson.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#429

Post by ThomPete »

pzxc wrote: post #428
natep wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Declaration of Independence says it, so it must be true? The DoI is, among other things, a social contract that most Americans have agreed to, which is exactly what ThomPete said.

My point is that saying the belief is Ayn-Randian is disingenuous, because a lot of founding fathers believed that also. But I guess it's easier to diss on Ayn Rand than it is on Thomas Jefferson.

It's easier to diss on Ayn Rand because her claims are so much bigger. I am not American btw, so I don't have any specific problem dissing Jefferson, I just don't see why I should. I am not against property rights I am against the idea that property rights are natural rights.

I can forgive Jefferson for living in different times, but Ayn Rand should have known better.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#430

Post by crs »

Zak wrote: post #252
joe_the_user wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the guy who will offer you a cure for "everything you have minus one dollar" is going to get your business. Not necessarily. Suppose you have a deadly condition. Your information is extremely limited as non-professional. Would ... you can pay all your money now for the cure your doctor offers or you can wander over to an unknown provider for the best price? The quality of unknown providers is ... unknown and your…

Presently, no American hospital publishes its price list. Almost every American hospital publishes its price list to its primary customers: the insurance companies. The problem as I see it is that the insurance companies are the only entities that can get fair prices for health care, and they want to keep it that way. A potential solution would be to ban insurance discounts; a health-care provider could charge any pr…

My doctor and I had this discussion recently. He said that he is legally not allowed to advertise or share prices. The laws won't allow it as to prevent price fixing.

This was in Texas, so maybe someone that understands the laws can chime in and comment on that.

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