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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#121

Post by core-questions »

aeturnum wrote: post #42
justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

Uh, I suppose the name calling, strawman-ing of arguments and insinuations of subterfuge. > toxic loonytoon > The actual goal of the movement behind the ESD > banishing contributors for wrongthink > The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking Like I said I don't know the OSI culture (or this context) but nothing about this message strikes me as s…

> but nothing about this message strikes me as someone who's acting in good faith

So you don't know who ESR is, and you're going to act like the man who has put his entire life into this effort as though he's not "acting in good faith". Wow.

If anything, I'd question whether everyone else on the list even knows what 'good faith' is, as they voluntarily proceed to censor themselves.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#122

Post by teraflop »

monksy wrote: post #69
chx wrote: post #46

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure…

Why give back to someone that has stabbed you in the back?

That's an awfully loaded question. Based on chx's comment and those links, I think it's very unlikely he thinks "stabbed in the back" is an accurate description.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#123

Post by catalogia »

Barrin92 wrote: post #34
justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

conflating a code of conduct with "political ratfucking" (whatever that means) and going into a rant about political correctness and Marxism is at best incoherent, not exactly original and at worst paranoid and adds nothing of value. It makes you sound like you're one bad day away from chasing swans through the park nakedly and it isn't really productive in any community. People like Eric need to come to terms with t…

> " "political ratfucking" (whatever that means)"

That might sound like generic senseless profanity, but it's actually a term with specific meaning: "Ratfucking is an American slang term for political sabotage or dirty tricks."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfucking

Whether or not ratfucking is indeed happening here as ESR asserts is another matter. I mean only to comment on the meaning of the term.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#124

Post by luckylion »

sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind.

I'm more goal oriented, it's about getting to the destination, not the adventures we find along the way. If somebody is curing cancer but has a habit of calling everyone an asshole and is a prick in general ... let him. He's curing cancer, don't mess with that.

The same goes for software imho. If you can deliver great software AND always be kind and all that, great. If you have to choose, I'm always choosing the great software. I do agree though that you don't need to make those your public representatives. Insulate them with a layer of people that are more diplomatic.

Also, I believe a lot of this is because it's online, and even people that have been online for decades don't always realize how wildly different other people's backgrounds are and how they might misunderstand something/how their communication style might trigger some traumas.

The fact that the "be kind, be considerate" route gets abused by power grabbing people also doesn't help, because every honest appeal to kindness is hard to tell apart from the beginning of an unfriendly take-over.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#125

Post by rodgerd »

canada_dry wrote: post #37
turbinerneiter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read ESRs blog. He has gone insane after 9/11. He thinks homosexuals are pedophile. I have the cathedral and the Bazaar at home, and I live that book, but he isn't part of the healthy open source community anymore.

“No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness.” I'd say this might be case-in-point. Banning ESR will, of course, only reinforce and further his fury and disdain for what he seems to believe is political correctness gone awry.

Not seeing a lot of evidence of a great mind.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#126

Post by sascha_sl »

chx wrote: post #46

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure…

thank you for recognizing there was an issue, and thank you for trying to do better

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#127

Post by planetzero »

How ironic: A person railing against cancel culture gets cancelled by cancel culture.

Simply disagreeing with politically charged topics gets you a boot from many open source projects.

Many people that claim to want tolerance, actually want nothing less than exuberance for their own causes and have no problem painting people they disagree with as non-human, so they can harass, get them fired from their jobs or positions (canceling), and then finally silence.

This comes right out of the 'rules for radicals' playbook.

If you can't respect my freedom of speech, why should I protect yours?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#128

Post by turbinerneiter »

NyxWulf wrote: post #110
turbinerneiter wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about him no being an ally I'm the 70. It's about him conflating homosexuality with pedophilia _today_. I'm thankful for his work, but today people like him are driving away people from open source. And this is not a Linus Torvalds sometimes uses rude language kind of thing. It's about a person spewing hatred and toxic lies.

Without sources and specific primary citations, I find it hard not to read this comment as spewing hatred and toxic lies.

Scroll up, there is links. Read his blog. Build your own opinion. Don't trust what I say.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#129

Post by sascha_sl »

monksy wrote: post #112
sounds wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please post specific claims about @chx?

My message was based on his posts about the situation.

you may want to re-read it, because your framing is way off

he /admits/ to having been wrong

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#130

Post by tedivm »

NyxWulf wrote: post #101
tedivm wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any organization that promotes "true freedom of speech" to that extreme. I don't want the government shutting ESR down, but I would never hire someone who has said what he says about race, gender, or sexuality. The OSI has their own rights as well, and part of their own freedom of speech is that they get to chose who does or doesn't use their platform for speech.

> I'm not aware of any organization that promotes "true freedom of speech" to that extreme. I don't want the government shutting ESR down, but I would never hire someone who has said what he says about race, gender, or sexuality. Promoting something isn't the same thing as supporting or allowing it. Many mailing lists have allowed a self governing style of free speech. If you don't want to hear from someone, you add…

His comments on women along are disqualifying-

> "Try to avoid even being alone, ever, because there is a chance that a 'women in tech' advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp."

In my job I regularly have to talk to women. I wouldn't hire a developer who treated half the population differently. That's just one example too.

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