Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond • Hacker News Board

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#81

Post by nabla9 » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

monksy wrote: post #60

fancyfredbot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ratfucking"? Classy. I don't agree with him but I feel a bit sorry for him. He's passionate about this and he believes what he's saying. Perhaps nothing could make him see things differently, but banning him definitely won't.

I find it rather concerning that they're that quick to ban him for voicing dissidence. Was there anyone threatened by his speech?

It's not the treat, it's the lunatic ranting part.

For the sake of fairness, consider the case that people opposing him would use similar lunatic language.

They would drop fighting words like neoconservatives, greedy capitalist, far right nuts into the discussion. That would be crazy just as well.

----

For the record, I think ESR was mostly right on the issues. He is just communicating like lunatic angry person.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#82

Post by tedunangst » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #78

aeturnum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, I suppose the name calling, strawman-ing of arguments and insinuations of subterfuge. > toxic loonytoon > The actual goal of the movement behind the ESD > banishing contributors for wrongthink > The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking Like I said I don't know the OSI culture (or this context) but nothing about this message strikes me as s…

> banishing contributors for wrongthink And now he is banished. Are you really arguing against this?

Wrongthink shouldn't make you immune from banishment for being an asshole.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#83

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #13

I do wish that the author had pushed back on ESR's claim that removing CoC is the correct solution, particularly given the author's claim that nothing he found in ESRs posts to the list came even close to violating the CoC.

CoCs are an elaborate legalistic version of a conch shell. ESR wasn't holding the shell when he spoke.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#84

Post by JohnFen » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

That's distressing, but unsurprising. I've been watching the OSS community engaging in slow-motion self-destruction for a while now. This sort of thing is right in line with that.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#85

Post by Barrin92 » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

monksy wrote: post #56

Barrin92 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

conflating a code of conduct with "political ratfucking" (whatever that means) and going into a rant about political correctness and Marxism is at best incoherent, not exactly original and at worst paranoid and adds nothing of value. It makes you sound like you're one bad day away from chasing swans through the park nakedly and it isn't really productive in any community. People like Eric need to come to terms with t…

> conflating a code of conduct with "political ratfucking" There are strong criticisms of CoCs and questioning of the necessity of that. I don't think that's too much of a reach in how that was communicated. A bit exaggerated yes.

Context is probably required to understand what 'free discussion' he thinks is under attack. Over the years ESR has blamed gay people for HIV, women for their own suicide, Chinese conspiracy theories and whatnot. To put it simply, he has basically gone mad.

Sure there is a nuanced discussion about what is too much for a CoC but the sort of discussion that he thinks is supposed to be cut out actually needs to be shut down. I'm surprised it took this long, to be honest.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#86

Post by VectorLock » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

fancyfredbot wrote: post #50

nabla9 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

insane political rant part probably. >> * The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking by subverting th freedom-centered principles of OSI. It is very unlikely to be the last such attempt. > Make no mistake; we are under attack. If we do not recognize the nature of the attack and reject it, we risk watching the best features of the open-source sub…

"ratfucking"? Classy. I don't agree with him but I feel a bit sorry for him. He's passionate about this and he believes what he's saying. Perhaps nothing could make him see things differently, but banning him definitely won't.

Are you objecting to the word "ratfucking" or the ratfucking itself? As vulgar as it sounds, the word itself has a well established meaning.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#87

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

silverreads wrote: post #27

turbinerneiter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read ESRs blog. He has gone insane after 9/11. He thinks homosexuals are pedophile. I have the cathedral and the Bazaar at home, and I live that book, but he isn't part of the healthy open source community anymore.

only nutters were attracted to this work in the 80s and 90s. My point stands. We're kicking out the people that thought differently enough to make the world we now live in. Honestly I refuse to blame someone for believing propaganda when it was so strongly pressed upon them. Remember, gay content only recently became acceptable to advertisers and corporate america. Anyone with the old anti-gay viewpoints will be purg…

[deleted]

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#88

Post by sounds » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

monksy wrote: post #69

chx wrote: post #46

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure…

Why give back to someone that has stabbed you in the back?

Can you please post specific claims about @chx?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#89

Post by derefr » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #73

derefr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

Maaybe , but you'd have to follow the "safe, sane and consensual" rules. Explain in advance that that's what you're doing. Ensure that everyone is on board. And not do it in public, because the public aren't consenting. And if it rose to public prominence while remaining a men only club, that would probably cease to be OK. (It remains unclear to me what the long term psychological effects of participating in a commun…

> Explain in advance that that's what you're doing. Ensure that everyone is on board.

This assumes that people choose their way into this state. What if "software as performative BSDM" is the state of nature, that people are in unless they decide otherwise? (A bold claim, I know, but I can think of some good examples, and I bet you can too.)

> And if it rose to public prominence while remaining a men only club, that would probably cease to be OK.

What defines prominence? There are a lot of FOSS projects that are critically relied-upon by thousands of downstream projects, which nevertheless only have one contributor—and not even because that contributor doesn't accept PRs, but rather just because nobody else has ever thought to help them.

And then there are the tiny projects everyone ends up using because they're transitive dependencies of one thing or another. This comes up a lot in the Node.js ecosystem.

And then there are literal art-projects that people end up relying upon for some strange reason. _why's libraries were this kind of thing: open-source in a sense, but not for the sake of improving them qua software, but rather instead to improve them qua the original artistic vision, if you understood and shared it; and otherwise only open to view and learn from.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#90

Post by tomc1985 » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #55

justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

Below email is the quoted statement: ts originator is a toxic loonytoon who believes "show me the code" > meritocracy is at best outmoded and in general a sinister supremacist > plot by straight white cisgender males." I think open source has a serious problem in the sense that there are a lot of projects headed by single, rather abusive and obsessed individuals. And moreover, where a stream of obscenities in an emai…

His statements seem more like the words of a man who feels strongly and passionately about his cause. It's a little suprising that the OSI keeps such high standards for decorum if that was the message that got him banned.

It deserves a warning, maybe, but banning him? Cancel culture indeed.