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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#71

Post by downerending »

zozbot234 wrote: post #31
justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

The "toxic loonytoon" part, referencing a prominent candidate to the OSI board? I mean, surely we can all have our own opinions about any candidate, but the optics aren't that good.

I think it's a reference to one of the people pushing very hard on spreading CoCs everywhere. Can't recall the name. (Corin?) Reading some of that person's tweets, though, left me with a very bad impression.

Anyway, search and form your own opinion.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#72

Post by josteink »

aeturnum wrote: post #10

From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned: http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.... I'm not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don't think I'd wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose? Edit: replaced plorkyeran's account link with their post. I also now notice othe…

I find that email a perfect summary of the current situation.

A bit rough tone, sure, but I think that shows that he’s actually passionate about these things. That’s good, not bad.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#73

Post by pjc50 »

derefr wrote: post #47
sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

Maaybe, but you'd have to follow the "safe, sane and consensual" rules. Explain in advance that that's what you're doing. Ensure that everyone is on board. And not do it in public, because the public aren't consenting.

And if it rose to public prominence while remaining a men only club, that would probably cease to be OK.

(It remains unclear to me what the long term psychological effects of participating in a community where "nobody is kind to anybody" are, and what kind of trauma they are replicating)

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#74

Post by joe_the_user »

monksy wrote: post #48
zozbot234 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "toxic loonytoon" part, referencing a prominent candidate to the OSI board? I mean, surely we can all have our own opinions about any candidate, but the optics aren't that good.

Yes, he has his own opinion. What is wrong with that? IMO: His opinion has a lot of weight here. He founded the project. Without his philosphy in the start you wouldn't be where it is today.

I'm pretty the point is that OSI already laid down guidelines that asked for civil communication - and name calling is epitome of uncivil communication. Indeed, his comment is basically contesting those guidelines.

So this was clearly one of those no recovery situations. Either guidelines for civil behavior or "show me the code" meritocracy wins but it's hard to see "agreeing to disagree" being possible here.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#75

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

armatav wrote: post #20

Eventually darwinism will win out. If the correct way is to censor certain opinions, then naturally organizations that tend to do that will outcompete organizations that don’t. And if not, then not.

That might be true (although it might not; evolution infamously doesn't exactly optimize for "best", just "survived"), but even if it is it would be nice to minimize the collateral damage.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#76

Post by sascha_sl »

sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

I'm not exactly sure where you draw the difference. Minority opinions are sometimes helpful in creating products that work for everyone (my favorite example here being a hand dryer that did not recognize black skin). It can be useful to amplify such voices. If you want to call that "SJWism", fine.

But this is literally just a call for civility, recognizing that many people may not want to subject themselves to this kind of toxic atmosphere. You can ALWAYS voice your concerns in a productive manner in the "meritocratic" ideal.

Added to this, note that the attack surface for such toxic behavior might be much bigger if you're a minority group. Let's take the assumption that women need every fucking thing explained to them - which is quite alive and really fucking annoying. I don't think that's banworthy, but certainly noteworthy and, if you wanna continue to talk down to your peers, maybe you need a break from the mailing list after all.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#78

Post by josteink »

aeturnum wrote: post #42
justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

Uh, I suppose the name calling, strawman-ing of arguments and insinuations of subterfuge. > toxic loonytoon > The actual goal of the movement behind the ESD > banishing contributors for wrongthink > The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking Like I said I don't know the OSI culture (or this context) but nothing about this message strikes me as s…

> banishing contributors for wrongthink

And now he is banished.

Are you really arguing against this?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#79

Post by tarkin2 »

He’s obviously a great when it comes to his contributions over the years. And he may have a point in his criticisms. But he doesn’t seem in a healthy state of mind. He seems paranoid - “make no mistake we are under attack” - angry - “loonytoon”, “ratfucking” - and the victim of a cultural attack - “journalistically-protected class“. The linked article on here about homosexual priests seems to suggest it’s been a theme for a while.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#80

Post by kick »

monksy wrote: post #60
fancyfredbot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ratfucking"? Classy. I don't agree with him but I feel a bit sorry for him. He's passionate about this and he believes what he's saying. Perhaps nothing could make him see things differently, but banning him definitely won't.

I find it rather concerning that they're that quick to ban him for voicing dissidence. Was there anyone threatened by his speech?

He has a long history of making statements like this. Anyone showing up for the first time in years only to intentionally and obviously violate rules should be kicked out.

I fully agree with the idea that "ethical" licenses aren't free software, but the dude is a terrible actor in this. He violated the rules, and got banned. That's not a bad thing!

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