The Disadvantages of an Elite Education • Hacker News Board

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#41

Post by rcoder » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 5:43 PM UTC

davi wrote: post #27

For the "searchers" there are other, better schools than those of the Ivy League. I still wish I had gone to one of them. Less seriously, but maybe relatedly: Steve Jobs dropped out of Reed; Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard.

As another Reed dropout, I can say with some confidence that we're more numerous (at least relative to the student body size) than those who leave Harvard early. At one point, Reed's graduation rate within six years of matriculation was substantially lower than the four-year rate of most of its peer institutions, though those numbers have come up a lot in the last 5-6 years.

Reed has many of the intellectual trappings of an Ivy, but little of the opportunity to rub elbows with the rich & powerful. Jobs excepted, most of the college's famous alumni found their success in academia and the arts, not the business world.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#42

Post by Spyckie » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 5:49 PM UTC

They didn’t get straight A’s because they couldn’t be bothered to give everything in every class. They concentrated on the ones that meant the most to them or on a single strong extracurricular passion or on projects that had nothing to do with school or even with looking good on a college application. Maybe they just sat in their room, reading a lot and writing in their journal. These are the kinds of kids who are likely, once they get to college, to be more interested in the human spirit than in school spirit, and to think about leaving college bearing questions, not resumés.

Anyone else feel like they're in this boat?

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#43

Post by sethg » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 5:53 PM UTC

Can I get reality checks here from some people who actually attended Ivy-league schools? The author's description of Yale doesn't match my experience with MIT very well, but of course, MIT isn't one of the Ivies.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#44

Post by zandorg » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 5:57 PM UTC

bocajuniors wrote: post #29

swombat wrote: post #6

The problem begins when students are encouraged to forget this truth, when academic excellence becomes excellence in some absolute sense, when “better at X” becomes simply “better.” Interesting... I found the opposite. I went to Oxford University (as elite as it gets), with a head big as a balloon, and clearly thinking myself better than everyone. Four years in the presence of people whose intellect crushed me like a…

a couple of years ago i saw an academic ranking of british universities.sheffield was the best with oxford and cambridge around 20th place. so maybe you're right that oxford is different from yale

It's funny. I hadn't started University, and I was accepted at Sheffield to study AI. Now, I arranged to meet a hypertext legend to help him with a recent project, and I ended up having Christmas dinner with this guy, and some of the faculty and the head of computer science at Sheffield.

Something tells me it would have been better going to Sheffield than going to this local University just for this reason, but we all make mistakes.

As it happens, I became friendly with the head of computer science at my local University choice, for doing well in a computer trivia quiz.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#45

Post by timr » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 6:20 PM UTC

gambling8nt wrote: post #33

smanek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow ... that just makes me feel bad about myself. Even so, that's very impressive. After looking through, I only see likely solutions to 3 of the 6, and I would still have a fair amount of work to even verify those 3. goes and mopes in the corner

The ability to do these sorts of competitions is a learned skill like any other. Certainly, it is a learned skill that has some relation to research ability within mathematics, but neither tests, nor grades, nor classes are the be-all or end-all of skill measurement tools. If you can solve half the questions, you have enough logical ability to accomplish anything short of beating cperciva at a math competition. The t…

Someone needed to say this. Glorifying the Putnam is a perfect example of what the author of the essay was discussing as a "false sense of self-worth" that's based in numeric metrics.

The world is filled with brilliant, respected people who never did well on a math test.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#46

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 6:26 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #36

SwellJoe wrote: post #2

"An elite education gives you the chance to be rich—which is, after all, what we’re talking about—but it takes away the chance not to be. Yet the opportunity not to be rich is one of the greatest opportunities with which young Americans have been blessed." How awful! Those miserable Ivy League kids and all that they miss out on. I never knew they had it so rough. We really should do something for those poor kids goin…

You're missing the point of his comment. You're also missing the point of life if you continue to hold "being rich" to such a high level.

[deleted]

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#47

Post by kingkongrevenge » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 6:31 PM UTC

Blowhard nerd with an ego wonders why he only gets along with nerds. What else is new.

And correlation is not causation. He never stops to ask whether the brats he's complaining about are simply drawn to elite education and not at all produced by it. The idea that college fundamentally changes people seems far fetched to me.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#48

Post by xiaoma » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 6:33 PM UTC

coglethorpe wrote: post #25

One thing I've learned is that there are many people like the plumber mentioned in the article that do better than many Ivy League grads financially. I know one person who has a two-year degree, worked as an electrician, and built his business to where he's one of the wealthiest people I personally know. Another sold his junk yard (which made him good money for years) for over a million. According to the book "The Mi…

The richest guy I've met never had any post-secondary schooling except Hamburger U. He owns 12 McDonald's franchises and each clears about 1.5 million a year.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#49

Post by newt0311 » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 6:41 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #34

>"The political implications should be clear. As John Ruskin told an older elite, grabbing what you can get isn’t any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists." That's probably the most profound argument against our society that I have yet seen in a one liner.

Since when dud "grabbing what you can get" become wicked especially once long term implications are accounted for?

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#50

Post by timr » Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 6:45 PM UTC

rams wrote: post #38

"But social intelligence and emotional intelligence and creative ability, to name just three other forms, are not distributed preferentially among the educational elite." I used to wonder about the creativity bit at my previous startup job. The guy was a serial entrepreneur, very clued in technically, was a great communicator, had a great sense of humour etc, etc, Heck, he even threatened to write code once. Wharton,…

The premise is good, but the conclusion is flawed.

There are Ivy-league alumni who are creative and inspired, just as there are public school alumni who are insipid and shallow. The interesting question is, how could someone go through all of that high-quality education, and not gain the capacity for introspection that would allow him to be more original?