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Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

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Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#161

Post by mcv »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #63

I love computers with 12VDC native power jacks. Why? My solar-powered van (interior only, the engine is still diesel) is 12VDC everywhere, and that's good clean battery DC, not some noisy-ass AC/DC conversion. I love it so much that 2 of the last 3 computers I built (on an ATX form factor) were 12VDC native. I have external AC/DC power supplies for them, but when travelling/living in a solar-powered environment, I ge…

I was recently wondering if 12VDC shouldn't become the new current standard for inside homes. Everything is still 230VAC (in the EU at least, I think the US uses 110V?), which is way too much for a lot of household appliances. The only reason modern LED bulbs are hot and expensive is that they need to convert down to 12V from 230V. It's mostly washing machines and kitchen appliances that need that much (and some of those even need 380V).

Almost everything in the home needs adapters and power bricks to convert it to something sensible, which usually is 12VDC. So why not just make that the standard?

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#162

Post by mcv »

rb808 wrote: post #148

Why 12v though? What requires that much voltage? The chips are running at a few volts. Spinning drives are gone, is it just for fans? Seems silly to provide 12v then shift it down again.

True, but motherboards need to shift down anyway. The motherboard controls the voltage of the CPU, and that can be anything.

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#163

Post by willis936 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #157
willis936 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>not some noisy-ass AC/DC conversion https://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/07/03/seasonic-prime-ult... Is 30 dB SNR insufficient for a digital system? > My guess is that someone figured out how to shrink the necessary converters to a size that made it more "sensible" to put them inside the monitor I’m under the impression that this was demand/market forces. It used to be much cheaper to have an external brick rather th…

"noisy" in this context referred to the output signal, not the acoustic levels. Also, the 12VDC native monitor that I did buy didn't have a unique plug. It used the fairly standard ring/core 12VDC jack and plug found in many different contexts, though not a lot of digital ones.

12V / 6mV is ~33 dB SNR. What’s more is that the 6 mV ripple on this supply’s 12V rail is p-p and not RMS. So for most apples to apples measurements it’d be more accurate to say the SNR is closer to 35 dB.

Regardless, seasonic supplies, and this one in particular, are very low noise. Most supplies are closer to 30mV ripple on the 12V rail.

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#164

Post by dev_tty01 »

jacob019 wrote: post #64
vifya wrote: post #53

It was bound to happen eventually, there has been a long trend towards point-of-use regulation displacing multiple output supplies. I'm just surprised they went with 12V, and not 19V which has lower rectification losses, less power loss to wire/trace resistance, and a large existing design ecosystem from laptops where 19V has been the norm for years.

Or 24V or 36V, but alas 12V is the existing standard for legacy reasons so it's the path of least resistance for an overhaul of the PSU spec.

"path of least resistance" -- Ha, I see what you did there.

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#165

Post by undersuit »

Faaak wrote: post #135
russdill wrote: post #126

In one sense this feels like pushing the efficiency problem under the rug. There's a requirement for power supplies to meet a certain efficiency standard, and generating 3.3v and 5v rails are pushing that number down. Solution? Move that task to the motherboard where they won't count against the power supply efficiency requirement. Of course, from a purely engineering perspective, it really does make sense and it's o…

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that once the DC-DC converters are mainly placed in the motherboard, they won't be audited for efficiency anymore and global efficiency will plummet. A shame

Decreasing efficiency of the motherboard would mean it needs more power, meaning they would require larger power supplies in addition to being a new specification.

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#166

Post by detaro »

undersuit wrote: post #165
Faaak wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that once the DC-DC converters are mainly placed in the motherboard, they won't be audited for efficiency anymore and global efficiency will plummet. A shame

Decreasing efficiency of the motherboard would mean it needs more power, meaning they would require larger power supplies in addition to being a new specification.

Decreasing efficiency of their platform is also not really something Intel has an interest in, since it makes them look bad.

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#167

Post by ppf »

mcv wrote: post #161
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #63

I love computers with 12VDC native power jacks. Why? My solar-powered van (interior only, the engine is still diesel) is 12VDC everywhere, and that's good clean battery DC, not some noisy-ass AC/DC conversion. I love it so much that 2 of the last 3 computers I built (on an ATX form factor) were 12VDC native. I have external AC/DC power supplies for them, but when travelling/living in a solar-powered environment, I ge…

I was recently wondering if 12VDC shouldn't become the new current standard for inside homes. Everything is still 230VAC (in the EU at least, I think the US uses 110V?), which is way too much for a lot of household appliances. The only reason modern LED bulbs are hot and expensive is that they need to convert down to 12V from 230V. It's mostly washing machines and kitchen appliances that need that much (and some of t…

> So why not just make that the standard?

Power loss in cables at low voltage / high amps.

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#168

Post by AncientTree »

The big advantage could be finally moving the PSU out of the case, and having it as just an external power brick. This will make systems significantly lighter and smaller (and thus more portable), take heat out of the case, and improve airflow.

You can already buy 330w laptop chargers - just beef them up and you could easily run a mid-grade gaming PC.

https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Adapter-DA330PM111-ADP-330AB-332... You can already buy

Re: Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec

#169

Post by blattimwind »

magicalhippo wrote: post #89
thedance wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it important to have absolute accuracy on the 12V pin?

Not absolute accuracy, but you can easily drop a few volts on transmission losses if the cable is poor or damaged.

If you drop a few volts on the 12 V cable of a PC you're about to start a fire.
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