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Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#111

Post by danpalmer »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #68
keiferski wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. This is perhaps the main theme of the film: "There is no gene for the human spirit." You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. This goes against essentially eve…

> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly ov…

> But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise.

Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies.

For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. To me Vincent and Eugene are a rejection of this – showing that humans aren't just statistics, and that the guarantees are no such thing.

As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc.

I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars.

Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. Being gone for a year and that being "just one trip around the sun", lead the audience to see his trip as bittersweet because he's achieved his goal but will have to leave Irene temporarily, but ultimately a positive ending for him as he embarks on a new stage in his life. The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#112

Post by davidhyde »

It’s “Scientific” American yet they quote negative 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Use kelvin for low temperatures or, if you have to, at least degrees Celsius. For the benefit of the reader -300 F is 89 kelvin or -184 Celsius which is about 10 degrees c above liquid nitrogen’s boiling point.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#113

Post by DarthGhandi »

Tepix wrote: post #26

The article argues that on Mars we'd have to live underground which requires a lot of construction of tunnels and excavation. It does not appear to take into consideration the huge lava tubes that are present on Mars (and even bigger on the Moon). These are estimated to be dozens of kilometers long and hundreds of meters wide. They could be very attractive for human colonies. On the other hand on Triton, even if you…

Shielding Mars is possible with current technology.

https://phys.org/news/2017-03-nasa-magnetic-shield-mars-atmo...

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#114

Post by throwanem »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #68
keiferski wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. This is perhaps the main theme of the film: "There is no gene for the human spirit." You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. This goes against essentially eve…

> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly ov…

He doesn't save anything for the trip back. But he gets back. Every time.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#115

Post by tekkk »

Hmm. I have always considered low-gravity to be quite a big issue for any planetary colonization. Unless some cure is invented like a genetic mutation, it would seem that there is no way of coming back to Earth after spending a lifetime in eg 0.2 G.

This in mind I have always thought that Venus would make the best candidate in the solar system. With 0.9 G it would be as close as we could possible get to Earth yet however I have to admit, having no magnetosphere would be a giant pain in the ass. But since Venus already has a thick atmosphere, it would seem that after the required amount of gas has been removed, it would stay stable whereas in Mars you'd constantly have to offset the escaping gas. Possibly though that would not be an issue, since we are pretty great at the green-house gas generation.

But yeah, Mars would definitely be the easiest to terraform. But you wouldn't come back to Earth from there. And you'd mostly spend your life in bunkers underground to avoid getting beamed to death by the solar wind, same as with Venus. Unless we some day find a way to achieve immunity against it.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#116

Post by bryanlarsen »

jessaustin wrote: post #98
bryanlarsen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The methane is burnt and turned into CO2, it's not released.

I thought you were discussing rocketry? Releasing the exhaust is the point of the whole endeavor.

The exhaust is CO2 and H2O. CH4 + O2 -> CO2 + H2O

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#117

Post by bregma »

muzani wrote: post #33

> It’s cold on Titan, at -180°C (-291°F), but thanks to its thick atmosphere, residents wouldn’t need pressure suits—just warm clothing and respirators. I'm no space colony expert but am I missing something here? -180°C sounds like constant space suit level, not "just warm clothing".

A generous slathering of bear fat or whale blubber is all it would take. Maybe a vinyl outer suit so the viscious liquid methane rain doesn't dissolve your insulation.

On second thought, some kind of heated space suit sounds more comfortable.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#118

Post by Dumblydorr »

tekkk wrote: post #115

Hmm. I have always considered low-gravity to be quite a big issue for any planetary colonization. Unless some cure is invented like a genetic mutation, it would seem that there is no way of coming back to Earth after spending a lifetime in eg 0.2 G. This in mind I have always thought that Venus would make the best candidate in the solar system. With 0.9 G it would be as close as we could possible get to Earth yet how…

Mars is definitely the easiest place to colonize, by far. It's much closer than the gas giants, there's no craft capable of taking people to Saturn even devised, let alone constructed. Meanwhile, we have SpaceX actively building a rocket for Martian colonization.

Second, the Venusian atmosphere is oppressive as hell, you'll not be solving that problem anytime soon, as we can't even solve Earth's much easier atmospheric GHG problem.

Martian colonization will be tough. 30% gravity, 3% atmospheric pressure, radiation, very cold, very dry... however, building a base is conceivable and we think we know how to do it.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#119

Post by tantalor »

davidhyde wrote: post #112

It’s “Scientific” American yet they quote negative 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Use kelvin for low temperatures or, if you have to, at least degrees Celsius. For the benefit of the reader -300 F is 89 kelvin or -184 Celsius which is about 10 degrees c above liquid nitrogen’s boiling point.

The article is about human colonization, so Fahrenheit is more appropriate unit because it represents human compatible temperature ranges better than C or K.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#120

Post by tantalor »

Symmetry wrote: post #79
WalterBright wrote: post #41

Colonize the moon first: 1. plenty of solar power 2. close to earth 3. easy to launch out of its gravity well 4. lunar base technology can be iterated far more rapidly

I think colonizing the Moon is a good idea must mostly just the south pole to start with. On most of the Moon you have 2 weeks of frigid darkness you where you're living off batteries followed by 2 weeks of intense sunlight. At the peak of eternal light at the south pole you can just slowly turn your solar array 360 degrees over the course of a month and have (nearly) continuous power. There's a big difference betwee…

> slowly turn your solar array

Sure that's nice but the angle of sunlight is very low so you are limited in that respect, e.g,. available surface area.

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