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Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

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Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#31
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do EV's have gearboxes?

Some do, some don't. The Koenigsegg hybrid (so not strictly an EV, but can be operated as a pure EV) famously don't have a gearbox but a single, fixed reduction gear. There is a hydraulic coupling for the electrical motors to allow slow speeds. At higher speeds the coupling is mechanically locked to directly connect all engines to the wheels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Regera https://www.koenigsegg.com/…

There seems to be some language confusion here. Single speed gearbox is still called a gearbox.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#32
Reminds me of another "revolutionary new motor design" from a few years ago that promised greater efficiency than any other motor ever built. That one had an out-of-context praise blurb from an MIT professor, which is clearly better than an out-of-context praise blurb from a UT professor. At best, this is a solution in search of a problem. And until it's tested and certified by an independent party, it's not even that. The whole company reeks of dumb-money snake oil and I'm putting this in the same category as Juicero.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#33
post #26
post #23

Light expert analysis of this motor (it's nothing special and not manufacturable): https://www.anttilehikoinen.fi/technology/evaluation-of-the-...

Having read the article you linked that seems to be a misrepresentative summary of it.

The article is diplomatic, but not ambiguous. For instance:

> Cooling issues: can enough cooling air be forced inside the rotors?

> Cooling issues, again. The primary cooling path for more traditional motors is usually conduction through the stator yoke, to the frame, to either air or coolant fluid. For the HET, this path seems almost completely missing.

> [four lines later] Assuming the cooling performance remains unchanged, the reduced winding losses could then be cashed in by increasing the current density, and thus torque, torque-per-mass, and bringing losses back to the original level.

This may read as if there are good ideas here, but make no mistake- the implication is that these problems are nigh-unworkable. The possibilities of minor increases are locked behind immense problems.

There is a parallel with combustion engines here. The ideal combustion cylinder is spherical: it ensures more even burning and minimizes the area heat from escape from a given volume. You could make an engine with spherical combustors instead of cylindrical and reap that improvement. That's basically what toroidal motors try to do- use more surface area per unit of rotor volume (although due to the nature of air gaps[not discussed in the article], it's not obvious that this is actually beneficial). In both cases, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#34
post #7
post #6

Still cool if the gearbox can be omitted in car applications.

Do EV's have gearboxes?

If you exclude hybrids, 99.999% of EVs don't have gearboxes (unless you count single-speed ones), despite media labelling them as "automatic".

As mentioned, Taycan and the preprod Roadster are exceptions, and those are also the two exceptions I know.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#35
post #7
post #6

Still cool if the gearbox can be omitted in car applications.

Do EV's have gearboxes?

If by "EV" you mean "electric car", then they almost always do (and it's almost always a single fixed reduction, around 10:1).

But a lot of non-car electric vehicles (maybe the majority) use hub motors, where the wheel's angular velocity is the same as the motor's.

That's not the whole story, though, as a more illustrative number is the ratio between wheel radius and the motor's air gap radius, multiplied by whatever reduction gearing is used. I don't think there's a name for this concept, but you could borrow "gain ratio" from bicycles (https://sheldonbrown.com/gain.html).

For a hub motor the wheel pretty much has to be bigger than the motor for ground clearance (unless you're a monorail or something), so the gain ratio is less than one (maybe 0.5 for a skateboard and 0.25 for an ebike).

And practical wheel speeds tend to be a lot lower than even an inexpensive motor's top speed (not surprisingly, by about a 10:1 ratio).

Bottom line is a hub motor tends to be ~10 times larger than it would need to be on a peak torque basis, so fitting more torque into a smaller package (even at the expense of top speed) is a win. On the other hand solving the peak torque issue doesn't magically solve other issues that might crop up as you downsize (e.g. heat).

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#36
post #13

The key quote from the linked article seems to be "It’s essentially two concentric radial motors bookended by two axial ones." My question is where's the cooling? You can put more magnetic field and torque into an ever smaller area, always true, but still going to have to dump heat out via some path. And the bigger the path for whatever is cooling, the lower the magnetic flux density and torque. So I'd be interested…

> Honestly, the car manufacturers might not be amused at the concept of selling fewer more reliable cars.

I wouldn't worry about it at all. One EVs become truly mainstream, car manufacturers will start removing redundant components and reducing the amount and quality of input materials, until the reliability curve again reaches the shape they desire.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#38
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read the article you linked that seems to be a misrepresentative summary of it.

Yep, I've also read the linked article and for me the summary is more like "HET motor has some interesting ideas, some difficulties, some claims are incorrect and it's probably a bit difficult to manufacture."

Interesting ideas- kind of, but the interesting ideas are not new. Dimensionality is one of the oldest formulated motor-related problems. Hybrid rotors are certainly an active area. The motor is a pretty novel and clever way to draw all these things together, but it's not the kind of thing to build a product around.

Some difficulties- these are fundamental issues. They are fundamentally unsolvable with the suggested architecture. Eg anything that adds cooling back in will conflict with the rotors or coils.

On manufacturability:

> Flux paths in the teeth seem very much 3-dimensional, which would require sintered materials to be used to limit eddy-current losses.

This really belies how much of a fucking nightmare this would be.

First, an unrelated area of development: grain-oriented electrical steels have 30% higher permeability (in one direction) than non-oriented steels. People are actively looking to ways to orient steel grains into the arches necessary to make a motor, because even small improvements in permeability can lead to smaller and more efficient motors. A 30% improvement would be incredible, and justify a large cost increase since the cost of motors is effectively determined by the electricity usage.

The permeability of sintered soft materials is at best ~1/10th that of the electrical steel used in motors. So... thats a huge issue. Its also much more expensive. Its also mechanically unsuitable for high torque motors, because it's weak and brittle. It also has much higher losses.

The shape of the stator would also require entirely new technologies to even make. Die-sintered powders are very precise in two axes- since you're pressing into a mould, you can rely on near-thousandth repeatable tolerances once you have accounted for shrinkage after sintering (which can take multiple tries to get right). That third axis is a real bitch. Powder will never be consistent; you cant apply hundreds of tonnes of pressing force and be precise to thousandths of an inch, and even if you can get the force repeatable the compressability of powders varies too much between batches due to grain shape and size, temperature, additives, humidity... And even if it was consistent, you cant design for that. You can only adjust a ten thousand dollar mould after the fact.

And that z dimension is the most critical, since any asymmetry will cause uneven forces on the axle bearings. In a normal motor you can trivially be off by several hundredths of an inch because the axial force is negligible. In this design a thou will cause a large force imbalance, so each motor will need to be a precision part. Even variations inside the rotor will cause large vibrations, so sintering + heat treating will be a nightmare. Not to mention that the magnets will have to be matched individually, both for size/thickness and permeability tolerance.

If my boss wanted me to produce this thing, I'd quit.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#39

The motors are not really taking up a lot of useful space in the car and are not underpowered by any stretch so this tech needs to be price competitive. Like Hyundai said batteries are where we need to see advances. Don't get me wrong it is interesting and I am glad to see advances but I don't see this as a terribly useful advance today.

The main use would be exactly what the article says - a higher output generator for when windmills operate at slow speeds. The car motor conceptualizations are purely there for click bait.

Re: Hunstable Electric Turbine can produce up to 3x the torque of other motors

#40

Reminds me of another "revolutionary new motor design" from a few years ago that promised greater efficiency than any other motor ever built. That one had an out-of-context praise blurb from an MIT professor, which is clearly better than an out-of-context praise blurb from a UT professor. At best, this is a solution in search of a problem. And until it's tested and certified by an independent party, it's not even tha…

Not all new motor design promises are trash though.

The brushless DC outrunner motor, which used to be a niche design due to the complexity of the control circuits and expense of permanent magnets now seems to be used in nearly everything new. Most electric cars are moving towards it, electric bikes, hoverboards and escooters, and it's used in every drone, some electric powertools, etc.

I think it will be in next-gen trains, and will become the 'standard' motor to replace current uses of AC synchronous motors in factories, mostly due to its ability to brake and regen power when stopping, meaning it gets less hot.

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