“Just walk out” technology by Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#71

Post by AJ_Newman » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #3

> In Just Walk Out-enabled stores, shoppers enter the store using a credit card. They don't need to download an app or create an Amazon account. But you may as well. By giving them a CC# you're allowing Amazon to spy on you anyway -- and that's not even mentioning the copious surveillance in such stores in the form of cameras and behavior detection. > If shoppers need a receipt, they can visit a kiosk in the store an…

Is it really spying if you are entering the store with full knowledge that your every move is being watched by a system in order to automatically track your selections?

If anything it's full disclosure high level surveillance. I imagine big-box retailers such as Wal-Mart already have sophisticated surveillance systems that attach your card info to visual surveillance systems for Loss Prevention. I've heard of people who were repeat shoplifters at Wal-Mart that eventually got caught; and when they did, Wal-Mart had essentially a running tab of all the things they had ever shoplifted and slammed them with a grand theft charge despite the fact the time they got caught they were only attempting to shoplift a $5 bottle of shampoo or something.

I'm not denying the privacy disaster you're worried about, but honestly I think we're already too far gone down this road to be able to do anything about it.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#72

Post by txcwpalpha » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #57

txcwpalpha wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in most (all?) online shopping scenarios, and I don't really see any uproar about privacy concerns with those. AFAIK many retailers (Target, for example) use an identifier derived from your CC number and don't even need your email or phone number to build a profile on you. I totally agree with being concerned about your privacy, but I don't understand the increased harshness on this service specifically as oppose…

> Not in most (all?) online shopping scenarios But this is real-life shopping, not online. Online shopping is 100% optional. Real-life shopping is not. > Is it just because this one is Amazon and it's fun to hate on them? No, my criticisms and concerns about this would be no different regardless of what company was doing it.

>But this is real-life shopping, not online. Online shopping is 100% optional. Real-life shopping is not.

What? Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to go shopping? I don't understand this statement. "Real-life shopping" is just as optional as online shopping is. Hell, "real-life shopping" is more optional in this regard because you can always pay with cash and escape the aforementioned privacy concerns. You can't do that online.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#73

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #61

JohnFen wrote: post #3

> In Just Walk Out-enabled stores, shoppers enter the store using a credit card. They don't need to download an app or create an Amazon account. But you may as well. By giving them a CC# you're allowing Amazon to spy on you anyway -- and that's not even mentioning the copious surveillance in such stores in the form of cameras and behavior detection. > If shoppers need a receipt, they can visit a kiosk in the store an…

Yes, if you don't trust the retailer with your privacy, you shouldn't use their store. That rule applies in general. Even 7-11 has security cameras capturing faces of people entering and leaving the store.

> Yes, if you don't trust the retailer with your privacy, you shouldn't use their store

Easy to say, hard to do. It's pretty hard to live without having to enter a retail establishment. Particularly one that sells you your food.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#74

Post by vikramkr » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #26

vikramkr wrote: post #2

Is any retailer going to actually be willing to trust amazon though? And what if it doesn't work and the customer ends up not paying - is amazon also taking on the liability for that?

These are not new issues. Retailers already rely on the trust of dozens if not hundreds of vendors for operations. Trust is established through contractual obligations, pilot programs, etc. Shrinkage in the US is about 1.38% on average currently. Any competent retailer would run a pilot and evaluate its effect on shrinkage rates.

I'm also referring to trusting amazon specifically. They're a competitor, and not one known for playing nice. I've heard that retailers are hesitant to even use AWS (I don't have a source for that and would love to hear otherwise if that's the case?) - because of competitive concerns- so will people want to work with amazon for something so core to their business?

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#75

Post by bmgxyz » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

superkuh wrote: post #39

As long as there's still an option for human people to pay using their own money it's fine. But if these stores only allow for corporate people to purchase items (on behalf of their customer humans (credit cards)) then it is a very unethical system and probably should be made illegal.

I agree, at least generally. However, something I've learned is that privacy always has a cost. I wouldn't count on retailers to pay it when most of their customers won't notice or care, and I wouldn't count on governments to deliberately avoid reducing friction in their economies either.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#76

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

superkuh wrote: post #39

As long as there's still an option for human people to pay using their own money it's fine. But if these stores only allow for corporate people to purchase items (on behalf of their customer humans (credit cards)) then it is a very unethical system and probably should be made illegal.

Either made illegal or made to comply with government intervention to issue all citizens an identification that can be used universally for this purpose.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#77

Post by buckminster » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

lozaning wrote: post #29

IDK what happened to it, but for a while the Mountain View Walmart had a system where your cart had a pricing gun thing and you'd scan stuff as you put it in your cart. Then when you got to self checkout you paid in the Walmart app and left with no other steps. I thought it was pretty convenient. Its no longer there and I've not seen it anywhere else so I guess maybe it was a failed pilot program or something.

Tesco in the UK has this in my local store. I don't live in a hotbed of innovation so I assume it's nationwide.

Edit: it's called 'Scan as You Shop' and is offered in about 500 stores.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#78

Post by judge2020 » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #26

vikramkr wrote: post #2

Is any retailer going to actually be willing to trust amazon though? And what if it doesn't work and the customer ends up not paying - is amazon also taking on the liability for that?

These are not new issues. Retailers already rely on the trust of dozens if not hundreds of vendors for operations. Trust is established through contractual obligations, pilot programs, etc. Shrinkage in the US is about 1.38% on average currently. Any competent retailer would run a pilot and evaluate its effect on shrinkage rates.

But Amazon is a completely different beast - they've already shown they want to horizontally expand into the grocery market everywhere, so stores using their technology is just a stopgap on the journey to Amazon cutting into the profits of said stores via competition. When that happens, they better hope removing Amazon's system is as easy as it is to integrate it.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#79

Post by londons_explore » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #38

vessenes wrote: post #13

Seeing a few negative comments here; I think these are short-sighted in the extreme. Labor is a major cost for retail; anything that massively reduces labor costs is going to be hugely game changing. Combined with amazon promises that it takes only a few weeks to integrate (seriously??) if this works at all, this is going to be a super fast growth group at Amazon. For reference think back to how many stories you’ve r…

Do these actually reduce labor costs though? I frequently use the Amazon Go store in Seattle right next to the Spheres, and there seem to be as many if not more employees there than at an ordinary convenience store: there's always one person by the liquor area to check IDs, one or two people walking around the store restocking the shelves and helping the clueless tourists download the app, and several people in the k…

Id checking can probably be done through the app. Most online bank accounts simply require a 30 second video call with a person showing their face and their passport and the account becomes 'verified'. You only ever have to do that once, so very cheap.

Restocking is already a cost stores have to do. Restocking is also something which isn't too time sensitive - you can do more restocking at night if needed. It's also possible to design the shop to require less restocking, by for example having deeper shelving units where products slide towards the front.

Helping people use the app won't be needed as soon as it becomes universal.

The only remaining cost becomes store security, but if everyone has an attached account which has been verified by a passport, even security might no longer be needed. Just bill people for the items they take, ban them if they don't pay the bill, and call the police and ban anyone who is violent.

Re: “Just walk out” technology by Amazon

#80

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

txcwpalpha wrote: post #69

JohnFen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The quotes you've chosen (and the linked website) make no attempt to say that they are privacy related at all. I was pointing those out because of their obvious privacy implications, not because I thought that the article was presenting them as privacy-related. > your comment feels like you're building a strawman. How so? I was merely pointing out two of the several things the article said that got my spidey-senses…

In your original comment, the statement "But you may as well" misses the entire point of the quote from the article. You only "may as well" if the only point of that quote is privacy related, but it is not. The benefit of not providing an account or downloading an app is that it provides less friction for the shopper, so you shouldn't "may as well" do it just because of an unrelated privacy side-note.

I was not commenting on the thing that the quote was intending to talk about. I was commenting on the privacy implications of what it actually said. From a privacy point of view, you may as well sign up for an account or install an app -- that's a problem for those of us who wouldn't sign up for an account or install an app due to security concerns.