Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak • Hacker News Board

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#231

Post by EarthIsHome » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:23 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #222

EarthIsHome wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement isn't true in the US. The wealthiest in this country don't really do any work. In fact, the wealthier you are, the less you actually have to work. The people who are working for a wage are the ones who are working to live, and the wealthiest don't have to do that. Often, people who work the hardest make the least. I reject your premise that that people will have a reduced quality of life. These taxes w…

Creating value requires some combination of labor and capital. Take away any return on capital and that capital goes elsewhere.

> Take away any return on capital and that capital goes elsewhere.

Currently, this capital is going to the überwealthy where it remains there and is hoarded there, providing no "value" to society.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#232

Post by eyegor » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #149

allovernow wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In authoritarian states you frequently get situations where you're punished for not meeting certain bureaucratic metrics. For example, in China word is factory output is used as a proxy for productivity, so they're allegedly running factories without producing anything just to raise the power bill to appear productive. Face is ingrained in Chinese culture partly because in an authoritarian state where your behavior m…

The American model for government funding is also a bit messed up ( at least what I remember from high school civics in the 1980s) where each department must spend what they are allocated or the department is guaranteed to get less money in the next fiscal year budget. I could be wrong but this creates a disincentive for saving money as most states and the federal government work on the same model.

It's actually even less efficient than that. On top of keeping spending high, every project that involves contractors must have at least 3 bidders [0]. So for smaller projects people often spend substantially more time modifying contract details and finding contractors than the project itself takes. (By playing with project requirements, you can increase the pool of contractors). At an unnamed national lab, 6-week projects typically took 6-18 months of hunting down contractors until the start of work.

[0] not sure if this is still true, but certainly was in 80s-early 00s.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#233

Post by polishTar » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:28 AM UTC

keanzu wrote: post #226

Under Europe's rules, airlines operating out of the continent must continue to run 80% of their allocated slots or risk losing them to a competitor. Risk losing their slots to a competitor? No airline is making money right now and none can afford to take over new slots to operate more flights. Your slots are completely safe - there are no buyers.

If the slots are so valuable that it makes sense to fly empty flights to keep them, then certainly it would also make sense for a disruptor to start flying empty flights to steal them if they were left unused.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#234

Post by closeparen » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:28 AM UTC

toxik wrote: post #209

derrick_jensen wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are only profitable because they serve their users better than their competitors.

You cannot seriously believe this. Is a parking company only successful due to how well it serves its users? No, it extracts rent.

People paying to park there are getting something they value.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#235

Post by orange_fritter » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:29 AM UTC

redis_mlc wrote: post #155

gruez wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's really the issue, why are they constantly making ghost flights? Surely there are places to park planes in bulk (eg. same place where they're parking all the 737 MAX)

> Surely there are places to park planes in bulk No, there aren't for airliners. Most are in the air at any given time. There's boneyards and mfg. airports, and that's about it. A possibility would be a non-operating airport in a friendly country - thinking about the new Berlin airport. Boeing likely finally stopped making the 737 MAX after they ran out of parking space, which forced a decision. To park even one airl…

I have no knowledge on this topic, but weren't most/all *US flights grounded during the 9/11 attacks?

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#236

Post by skybrian » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

It seems like this could be fixed with a bit of economics?

One idea would be to have airlines pay reservation fees for unused slots, where the cost is slightly lower than flying planes in that slot.

I also wonder how the waste compares with Bitcoin?

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#237

Post by bumby » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:35 AM UTC

kroep93nd wrote: post #142

closeparen wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can only give away slices of a fixed resource for so long. Eventually it runs out. You literally can't start an airline from scratch. You have to first buy one that already has landing slots, then figure out how to dispose of the planes/staff/operations/debts that come with the package. Is that really better for competition than just having a market for slots?

Only for them to immediately be gobbled up by 1 or 2 big players. How about a market for destinations? Oh wait that will be immediately controlled by one player. Hm it seems consolidation is the natural path we prefer towards solving a problem. Why not let the bureaucracy manage it then? Give up the pretense. This is all market capture of finance by low effort grifters who will throw a fit when they don’t get privile…

Freakonomics did a good episode related to this [1]

One of the takeaways was that as organizations grow they become more married to spending resources to maintain their existing system which comes at the cost of innovation. So they “innovate” by buying other firms/ideas and it eventually leads to consolidation of an industry.

[1] https://freakonomics.com/podcast/in-praise-of-maintenance/

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#238

Post by adventured » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

MikusR wrote: post #188

Reedx wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This appears to be happening in China with electricity quotas. Running AC and machines in empty factories to make quota. "Local companies and officials are fraudulently boosting electricity consumption and other metrics in order to meet tough new back-to-work targets" https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/Lights-go-on-but-no... "Video evidence. In #Wenzhou, factory manager told they must consume 3000 kWh electrici…

Also in US https://www.theverge.com/2012/9/24/3381238/microsoft-power-w...

Not also in the US. They're entirely different situations with entirely different goals by the people doing it.

Microsoft was trying to avoid a penalty for itself, one company.

The businesses in China (not all obviously) are conspiring with the bureaucracy to fake economic activity on a massive scale, to put on a veneer for the outside world. This is about appearances to the world, because China is very scared right now.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#239

Post by vvanders » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

SECProto wrote: post #202

closeparen wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can only give away slices of a fixed resource for so long. Eventually it runs out. You literally can't start an airline from scratch. You have to first buy one that already has landing slots, then figure out how to dispose of the planes/staff/operations/debts that come with the package. Is that really better for competition than just having a market for slots?

> You literally can't start an airline from scratch. Gonna need a citation on this one. I would guess the actual reason airlines are hard to start from scratch is the massive capital required, but would be interested in having this guess proven incorrect. Porter Airlines in Canada (which presumably has a very similar regulatory regime) was started from scratch about 20 years ago.

You can also do like Kenmore Air and just land on the nearest body of water.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#240

Post by p_l » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 1:43 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #216

Ididntdothis wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that a company internally is run like a Soviet Style planned economy. 5 year plans, no way for people on the ground to adjust plans, inflexible leadership. I could also mention things like total disconnect between communication from leadership and reality or motivational posters. It's all there. It's not surprising they create similar behaviors.

And yet, all of these companies that run like command economies have collectively out-competed all the companies that run like market economies. We know this, because the latter... Don't really exist. No company of any note operates like one. Does that imply that command economies are actually more efficient than market ones?

The problem of command economies aren't related to being command economies, they tend to be related to communications.

A market is a form of communication, with various forces that are supposed to balance themselves. Many of them actually outside of market (the supposed anti-monopoly aspect heavily depends on externalities preventing concentration, like slow travel/shipping, non trade barriers, etc.)