Live data from Hacker News

Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

wired.com

71–80 of 144 posts

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#71
Some class-action lawyers will sue and make millions for themselves while every car owner will get $1 for the unfixable problem.

If only this was deemed as a road safety problem forcing a recall.

Is it possible to remove the antenna or disable the radio receiver in the car to force physical key use?

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you and not a good representative of the target market for keyless fobs. slovette and aetherspawn give good use cases for some benefits. I still ask how much of a real-world problem to be solved was sticking a physical key into a steering column? What were the stated goals for developing NFC ignition fobs en re drivers, manufacturers, and the automotive industry?(1) Apart from inevitable consequences like fr…

> Leaving fobs in the car more often OTOH, it's much harder to leave a key in the car when you never have to take it out of your pocket in the first place.

Now i find the opposite situation happening and more difficult/ expensive to solve, that is leaving the keys outside the car and driving away without them.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you dont have children

I find this behavior from parents very condescending - "You don't have children therefore your argument is invalid". Parenting isn't that hard - I have 2 kids (8 and 5 years age) and we're just doing fine. Just like 7 billion other people on this planet whose parents went through the same. Of all the hard things I've done in my 42 years of life, raising kids doesn't rank in the top 10.

Survivorship Bias? /s :)

I have 3 kids around the same ages. I wouldn't say they're the hardest thing in life but they're often a very difficult variable to manage along with life's other challenges. They have this compounding effect...

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, when you’ve got 4 kids and both arms full of groceries, when the doors open automatically or even unlock on their own it’s a godsend. I’d even say it’s probably saved some lives as the kids race to get in and out of the parking lot instead of waiting on me to shuffle around for the keys, dropping bags in the process, and then chasing each other around in blind traffic.

Isn't the solution to that situation a shopping cart?

Not always possible (weather conditions, snow can be a problem with those), and even with a cart you still have four kids to keep an eye on.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#75
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today’s it’s mostly smart keys. Tomorrow it will all be driven from your phone. I can’t wait when I never have to carry a key again. This is a stepping stone.

You want a car that stops working when your phone battery dies?

It doesn't work that way. iPhones NFC chips are still powered even if the phone battery dies. That's how transit cards work even when the battery is dead.

https://bgr.com/2018/09/18/iphone-xs-vs-iphone-xr-nfc-chip-w...

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#76

Call me old but what is so great about the smart key? Not having to pull it out of your pocket? I know this is an old rant already but car have reached the crappyfication curve, when something cannot improve its main purpose anymore it starts adding unneeded features to be able to push a “new” product.

The keys this article is talking about aren't (necessarily) keys you don't have to "Pull out of your pocket". What's "smart" about them is that the car's immobilizer technology talks to them before agreeing to let the vehicle be driven. Hence the article says thieves would be able to "hot wire" a car after using this attack. You can't (if manufacturer's did their job properly) "hot wire" modern cars like you see in a…

Mechanical keys with transponders are even easier to clone but their range is very short (the transponder has to be literally inside the antenna) so a distant attack is almost impossible, smart keys on the other hand have the same range as the remote, its only limited by the range of the transmitter in the vehicle, if you touch the door and amplify that signal and the keys are close enough to pick it up, it will answer by unlocking the doors.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#77

The LockPickingLawyer has done a few recent videos on RFID locks and how one can bypass them. They were pretty interesting to me: "[1052] Defeating a RFID System With The ESPKey" => https://youtu.be/0SEHUqkbIjU "[1056] This Black Box Reads RFID Cards in Your Pocket" => https://youtu.be/dTObKtHzroM

[ Edited to insert: 1056 sort-of covers this, that's what I get for not having seen his latest video ] The lesson in 1052 sort of misses the point. LPL (his videos are a lot of fun by the way and I recommend them to anyone who is curious about lock picking) says: > So, if you are installing an access control system like this it is really important to use one that only transmits encrypted data This would defeat the ES…

> What you actually need to do to defeat this is a bit more expensive. You need the token (keyfob, card, etcetera) to be smart enough to use the tiny surge of power to do local computation, and then produce one-time-only access codes.

Why do you need the keyfob to rely on a "surge of power"? Can't you put a battery in it and charge that battery when driving? If the battery runs down, you needed a backup anyway (physical key or phone app) in every implementation I've seen.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, they should not be harder than a 5 on the mohs scale. as we all know, phone glass scratches at a level 6, with deeper grooves at a level 7

The scratches on my iPhone disagree

They're definitely from keys? And what kind of metal does the key seem to be?

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the solution to that situation a shopping cart?

Not always possible (weather conditions, snow can be a problem with those), and even with a cart you still have four kids to keep an eye on.

> Not always possible (weather conditions, snow can be a problem with those)

I have a hard time imagining snow such that you can walk to a car with four kids while carrying bags, but can't push a cart.

> even with a cart you still have four kids to keep an eye on.

I would posit that kids + cart + grabbing keys is basically always preferable to kids + both arms full of bags + not grabbing keys.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the solution to that situation a shopping cart?

you dont have children

I'm not saying dealing with the kids is at all easy. But the kids are there either way. So I think you have my argument exactly backwards. I'm not saying something is easy. I think kids plus carried bags sounds completely overwhelming. If you want to say I'm wrong, you're making the argument that kids plus carried bags is easier than I think. So please, elaborate on how that's easier than a cart.
Post reply on HN