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Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

businessinsider.com

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Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#61

Post by [deleted] »

Johnny555 wrote: post #59
barry-cotter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because on the flip side, airlines could keep canceling flights on less popular routes when they're not at full capacity (i.e. not/less profitable). This would lead to them getting fewer customers as they got a name for awful reliability, like Alaska Airlines have a reputation for being assholes from top to bottom, or United have a reputation for destroying musical instruments. If you want to more directly disincen…

Alaska Airlines have a reputation for being assholes from top to bottom, or United have a reputation for destroying musical instruments As a frequent flyer on both airlines, I'm not sure that either of those reputations exist, at least I've never heard them. I vaguely remember some incident with a broken guitar (?) But I couldn't tell you which airline.

[deleted]

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#62

Post by sonofgod »

I feel like there's a short-term solution to this:

You can keep your slot and not fly the plane, as long as you pay some large percentage* of the cost of each ghost trip to the organisation that'd resell your slot. Your 'flight' must be fully crewed.

That way the carbon isn't emitted, (some) jobs are kept secure, and the airline recoups a little of the money they would have otherwise lost.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#63

Post by qubex »

cmcaine wrote: post #56
qubex wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’ve answered elsewhere: burning fuel (and sustaining other operating costs) while they squat on slots ultimately ensures that squatting on too grand a scale and/or for too long will result in bankruptcy and thus ensures that the system is self-correcting (by limiting incumbent advantage).

If you just give fines to companies that don't run flights on routes then you can impose a penalty without incentivising empty or near-empty flights.

Excellent idea! So now you only have two more problems: lobbyists being paid to influence the fines (so that they don’t cause their clients so much harm as to make their anti-competitive strategies unprofitable); and regulatory capture (where regulatory bodies become beholden to those whom they regulate).

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#64

Post by i_am_proteus »

chrononaut wrote: post #50

Is this article being slightly over-dramatic? I would've thought most of these planes carry a significant amount of cargo, which likely has increased since there are fewer passengers and more room, and there might also be more remote/online purchasing as of recent. Or is that not really a factor here?

Passenger carriers do use extra weight/space for LTL shipments, but bear in mind that shipping in general is down due to supply-side effects (c. 25% reduction at Long Beach, the West Coast's busiest commercial port[0]) so there will be significant reductions in demand for LTL freight as a knock-on effect.

[0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/port-of-los-angeles-sees-corona...

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#65

Post by [deleted] »

qubex wrote: post #63
cmcaine wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just give fines to companies that don't run flights on routes then you can impose a penalty without incentivising empty or near-empty flights.

Excellent idea! So now you only have two more problems: lobbyists being paid to influence the fines (so that they don’t cause their clients so much harm as to make their anti-competitive strategies unprofitable); and regulatory capture (where regulatory bodies become beholden to those whom they regulate).

[deleted]

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#66

Post by code_duck »

bob33212 wrote: post #33
everyone wrote: post #18

Covid 19 is a good opportunity for extremely sensible change. Lets all stop needlessly flying, lets all work from home (if your just doing an office job anyway), lets use local products and not stuff from half way across the world.

A decent percentage of people put food on the table and a roof over their head by doing a job we could classify as needless

That's part of the case for universal basic income.

There's no reason to have half of the workforce participating in work that makes them seem busy but does not have any real usefulness.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#67

Post by sho »

yardstick wrote: post #49
qubex wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you understand the problems associated with the “just sell the slots” idea. The problem is that big airlines could buy up slots and then not use them. They wouldn’t necessarily have an incentive to sell them, either, because the buyers could be small, regional, or low-cost companies that could leverage them to build up a small but profitable business and later take on the bigger airlines (as happened wi…

The op addressed this issue with their comment about selling 1-5 year leases.

That didn't address the issue at all. They would just buy the leases and keep the competition out that way; no difference.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#68

Post by drivebycomment »

heliodor wrote: post #31
dtech wrote: post #2

This seems like a sensible rule that leads to unwanted behavior in this unforeseen case. Would make sense to grant a temporary exemption.

Unforeseen? Only because the people who created this rule couldn't be bothered or allowed to spend a few extra minutes thinking of edge cases. This is just one example of many blunt rules and laws we have on the books. Maybe in 100 or 500 years we'll implement governance systems that can serve us better.

It is difficult to write a rule that works perfectly all the time. It is even more difficult to write a concise rule that does so. And complex rules potentially increase the cost for everyone. I think this particular behavior isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I would assume this increases overall airline industry's carbon emission in tiny fraction while the rule probably prevented the tragedy of the commons for those slots.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#69

Post by cmcaine »

jsjddbbwj wrote: post #44
untog wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equating “what people are concerned about” with “what people vote on” is unwise. It’s not as if we all get a direct vote on “should we tackle climate change?” But hey: “For Democrats, climate change is now one of the two most important issues in politics, according to a new poll.” https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/02/poll-us-...

And rightly so, because people would vote to tackle climate change and to have travel and economical growth at the same time.

You can have a more expressive voting system than that. People can rank their priorities, etc.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#70

Post by germanier »

qubex wrote: post #30
barry-cotter wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stupid rule. This is not an unforeseeable case. Just sell the slots. You can sell them once and forever or you can auction them yearly or every two, three, five years, whatever. Demanding planes run for no one’s benefit is just setting money, and more importantly resources, on fire.

I don’t think you understand the problems associated with the “just sell the slots” idea. The problem is that big airlines could buy up slots and then not use them. They wouldn’t necessarily have an incentive to sell them, either, because the buyers could be small, regional, or low-cost companies that could leverage them to build up a small but profitable business and later take on the bigger airlines (as happened wi…

As we see here demanding utilization just increases the price of squatting. The same effect could be had without demanding burning fuel.
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