Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#231

Post by mellavora » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:02 PM UTC

fipar wrote: post #159

beefield wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's all very convenient until the crap hits the fan I have difficulties imagining the crap hitting fan that simultaneously breaks down electronic payment systems but rather miraculously keeps the purchasing power of paper money intact for any extended time. Could you maybe elaborate why you consider this specific scenario likely enough to worry about?

You may be reading "crap hits the fan" as something massive, like a collapse of the banking system. I'm not the OP, but I can also read it as "crap hits the fan for me ", and this makes it simple to imagine ways in which a person can lose access to digital payment (by theft, by being blocked by the bank for whatever reason, etc.) and if this happens, life would be difficult on a cash-less society until this access is…

which can and does happen.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#232

Post by beefield » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #198

beefield wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not "forcing"[1] people buying crap today makes the people creating the crap jobless and yes, that has a real cost for society. first because the jobless do not create value and second because someone needs to pay their unemployment benefits. [1] Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You can voluntarily choose to lend your money to the bank if you agree with the interest rate. If you do not, you are free to do…

If it's legal to own bitcoin or gold, what good does eliminating cash do?

Central banks do not guarantee purchasing power of gold or bitcoin.

(A note, The questions I made above are not meant to be snarky. Those are the kind of questions I struggled literally for months when I tried to get my head around negative rates and whether they make sense or not.)

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#233

Post by bad_user » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:05 PM UTC

robert_foss wrote: post #204

smichel17 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

> And needing to constantly go to ATMs just to keep notes on you is kind of ridiculous.

Not sure how it is in Germany, but we have ATMs on every street corner, so it's not a big deal.

I do prefer paying via Apple Pay though.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#234

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #139

type0 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

Makes me wonder how Nordic people behave anonymously, e.g. on online forums.

I get a lot of downvotes, which makes me sad. But I guess I have my real name on my account as well.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#235

Post by 2rsf » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

jalk wrote: post #190

johnlorentzson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tickets have no way of identifying you unless you register on their website. You could always just get rid of your card and get a new one when you want to.

How do you add money to the card? Here in Denmark we have a similar thing, but the only way to top up your card anonymously is through cash. Or do you have prepaid throwaway cards?

Yes, prepaids and possibly cash

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#236

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

robert_foss wrote: post #204

smichel17 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

I solved the 'penny problem'. I throw them away or leave them with the shopkeeper.

Keeping cash is a weekly issue with me? Not quite 'all the time'.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#237

Post by Symbiote » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #155

username90 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is around $20 a year, there are no people poor enough for that to be an issue in Europe.

Minimum wage in Bulgaria (part of the EU) is €3,743 per year . Now imagine someone that's not full-time employed. €20 for them is not nothing. For them that would be the equivalent of someone earning $100k a year having to pay $500 to have a bank account. Note that often these low income accounts also have to pay when doing (some) transactions.

"Reasonable" in Bulgaria will be a lower fee than in Denmark, where the fee is more like €30/year for a standard account (cheaper options are probably available).

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#238

Post by mellavora » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #20

dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Of course, the German government that made lists did so without credit card records or electronic ids or anything like that...

Not quite -- they did have some powerful support from IBM... so you are correct, not electronic IDs, but they did have a machine-readable datastore of everyone's address and other details (punchcards, I believe).

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#239

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

type0 wrote: post #116

rlv-dan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay more often with cash today than some years ago, as a statement. Interestingly, if you talk about cash in Sweden the comments you will get tend to be very hostile. It's like talking about meat in a vegan community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

Interesting. There's a children's book published in America where the house of oddball people (sleep on the lawn! paint the house orange! Wear party clothes all the time!) are persecuted by 'the General' who won't allow any fun.

Can't quite remember the name, something about 'Libertyville' which was ironic I think.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#240

Post by digestiv3 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:11 PM UTC

A lot of the comments to this post talks about the dangers with a cashless society in terms of giving up the right to privacy. While that might be true right now one must remember that the technological advances of cashless payments are very new and we must work towards a cashless payment solution that can meet the privacy needs that cash provides. Saying that "you should always be able to pay with cash if you want" sounds technophobic.