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People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

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Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare isn’t going anywhere. Once people get the taste for single payer healthcare, they don't give it up. Social security should be replaced with privately held accounts, just like superannuation in Australia. But in the transition people would need to be paid out their entitlement. So no problem there. But if UBI replaced all normal welfare (excluding disability etc) is that such a bad thing? As long as the UBI i…

> But if UBI replaced all normal welfare (excluding disability etc) is that such a bad thing? Part of the problem is that some welfare is not about the money, but the support. UBI is less likely to help someone with mental issues than someone who hates working at 7/11 while studying. Generalised, UBI likely helps those who have an impermanent problem over those that have longer term issues. Society likely would still…

I'm not familiar with the US system - does the term "welfare" refer to more than just monetary assistance?

I would assume social programs, mental health support, addictions support, job training etc. would still be around with a UBI.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#682
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the participants knew the study was temporary and invested the money in a job they knew they’d need after the study.

Exactly. With a permanent UBI in place you can throw all these studies out the window.

The effects are generally thought to converge after two years.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#683
post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My son never used a babysitter. He was raised by both his mother and me at home 24/7 (she didn't work, I worked from home). He is hardly dependent on us. More on his grandparents because they spoil him, but the first 4/5 years of his life, he would see them only a few times a year. You don't need to justify working full time, or your wife/husband doing the same, but there is no way childcare in a nursery/pre school i…

I would never crap on parents who use childcare (I don’t think you are either), because I know not everyone has the ability to have a stay at home parent or family to look after their kids. My original comment was more targeted to the OPs statement that little kids can’t learn much, so having a parent around doesn’t matter. As a parent myself, I come to realize that even though you might not think your teaching your…

I am not. My cousin had to put her daughter in a nursery when she was 2 months old as she had to work and grandparents weren't available. I know it is hard, and most people can't stay home. I tell my son he was very lucky to grow up as he did. I know that, and I know a lot of people sacrifice as much as possible for their kids.

I was replying to gp about using never using nanny's services or how it is a waste of talent for parents to do so if they can have more 'important' things to work.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#684
post #626

I don't think this fits the definition of basic income. > Whatever income participants earned was deducted from their basic income at 50 per cent That is equivalent to a massive 50% tax rate on every dollar earned. It seems to me the whole point of UBI is that its universal and not conditional on how much you earn otherwise.

How do you expect UBI to be funded? Either taxes or wars, and we haven't invested very much in our army.

UBI would be funded by taxes, duh.

But the funding mechanism isn't at issue here. The point is that for every dollar earned the participants lost 50 cents due to a decrease in support from the basic income. That's a massive disincentive to work.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#685
post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has 10 million people. The U.S. has 300 million.

US is #1, Sweden is #9. https://thegedi.org/global-entrepreneurship-and-development-...

So your gotcha is comparing the relative ranking of two countries in the top 10? A top 10 that has multiple European counties with robust safety nets in it?

I don’t think this data is saying what you think. There’s no evidence of disincentivization.

This reminds me of the people that complain that UBI causes people to work less, and when you dig into it, they stopped working overtime, or went back to school, retired, or started a family. You know, engage in behaviors that society says it values.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#686
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada has a tax rate that tops out at 50% (mostly), the US caps out at 37%[1]. I think we'd all be better off if the tax brackets went a lot higher. Rich folks tend to have a lot of inactive money that's just sitting around doing nothing - we can put it to more productive uses. 1. Please note, these numbers are off of raw income tax - both Canada and the US have other employment related taxes that I'm not counting h…

You aren't including state taxes.

and payroll taxes of 12% on first $140k.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This issue is not a "flaw". It's a root problem. We want to know the effect of permanent UBI, not of a temporary one, and we know (strongly suspect) the effect will be different. Maybe the simple solution is that the researchers establish a dedicated million dollar bank account for a participant and automatically withdraw $1000 for the participant every month.

That would more accurately gauge the effect on how much it disincentivizes, and how it changes the lifestyle of the recipient. It does very little to test economics. Perhaps UBI leads to a lot of people deciding to tend bar at the local tennis club, volunteering for the job. Maybe introducing UBI across a large area has marked effects on gym memberships. Those seem easier to test if you put a large area on UBI for a…

Good point. UBI may change the way of life dramatically.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the "Universal" aspect of it is so important. It's ridiculously easy for people to vote for defunding services that "other" people benefit from, and politicians can always whip up support by scapegoating some minority group as the root of all of our problems. But if the benefit is shared by everyone then it becomes near political suicide to suggest cuts to it. How many politicians successfully can campaig…

In this study, you were ineligible if you made more than $35k/year (~$26k USD). Is that still considered universal?

The study is meant to look at the effects of UBI, not provide a universal basic income to everyone. The study wouldn't be super useful if you included a billionaire, because nothing about their lives would change. They have limited money to do the study, so they have to draw a line somewhere.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. With a permanent UBI in place you can throw all these studies out the window.

The effects are generally thought to converge after two years.

Citation needed.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#690
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why don't managers and administrators work to produce things? They seem capable of labor, and they're paid extra, but they work less. Why? Edit: You downvoted me within a minute of my posting. I asked two questions. If you can't answer them, then it is because you fear their answers. So let's answer them! Managers and administrators don't produce things because they claim that their positions allow them to optimiz…

>So why don't managers and administrators work to produce things? They seem capable of labor, and they're paid extra, but they work less. Why? Management and administration is a skill that not everyone possesses. There are such things as good and bad managers. Just because the work they do doesn't directly output a tangible product doesn't mean it's not valuable. Additionally, it's typically a position with more resp…

> Additionally, it's typically a position with more responsibility as well as accountability which tends to reflect in higher pay.

Who has more responsibility for cooking your burger correctly, the cook or the manager? Who has more responsibility for measuring before cutting, the carpenter or the architect? Who has more responsibility for not leaving PII all over service logs, you or your team leader? I would politely suggest that there are different responsibilities for managers, but not that this somehow removes responsibilities from laborers.

> It's unfair to say managers work less because they do management tasks rather than the work their subordinates do. In virtually every job I've had, the more senior the manager, the more hours they worked. Retail especially.

My former CEOs have had enough spare time to show up in the tabloids because they can't stop having sex with their employees or making questionable business decisions with authoritarian governments. I don't have time for sex with my coworkers. Perhaps team leaders or low-level managers have to put in hours, but administrative management definitely does not.

> They don't just claim their positions optimize labour, it actually does optimize it.

In my lifetime, Linux was born and became not just a serious competitor to proprietary kernels, but supplanted them. Thus, the FLOSS model of a massive global commune of public-domain information and tools is a viable contender, able to compete with any corporation.

When I contributed to Linux, I reported to one of the subsystem lieutenants, and my code was reviewed by them and other contributors to the subsystem. For no money whatsoever, they advised me on which parts of the subsystem were worth contributing to, which outstanding tasks were too hard to tackle, and which documentation to read.

Also in my lifetime, Wikipedia was born, supplanting many proprietary encyclopedias within only a few years, and today it is another shining example of the triumph of the FLOSS model.

When I contributed to Wikipedia, I just did whatever I wanted. Whenever something looked like it could be improved, and I had the time and energy to improve it, I did what had to be done to make things better. If people disagreed, they could undo what I did; if I disagreed with them, then there were community arbiters who could negotiate a solution.

So, like, do managers actually optimize labor to the point where they earn their keep? I can't tell, and I think that we ought to measure.

> I don't understand where this idea that managers are merely irrelevant middlemen who have no impact on the people they manage comes from.

Oh, it's worse than that; the typical manager has a net negative impact on their direct reports, from what I've seen.

> And, as with almost any other job, a manager that fails to contribute will be replaced much like any other underperforming employee.

I no longer believe that you have been gainfully employed in a corporate hierarchy. This line gave you away.

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