Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

filecoin.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 66 posts

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#41

Post by johnmarcus »

ajhurliman wrote: post #31
aakilfernandes wrote: post #18

Whats missing is proof of delivery, and thats the most important thing. I'm not just paying AWS to store my files, I'm paying them to deliver my files. Maybe this could work as an alternative to glacier. But even then, I doubt it. I'd take Amazon with an SLA any day of the week.

That's the other way you get paid in Filecoin, payment channels for retrieving files. Although it's not technically "mining" it's easier to think about Filecoin having two types of miners: Storage and retrieval. Since it's incentivized there's a good chance you'll get your files back quickly if you're willing to pay more or if it's a common file.

As long as Filecoins is traded on a market, and not tied to actual cpu/bandwidth/storage costs, then if will ALWAYS be more expensive then AWS (and alternatives).

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#42

Post by whyrusleeping »

paulproteus wrote: post #38
whyrusleeping wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, thats where the second Proof comes in. PoSt (Proof of SpaceTime) periodically challenges miners to verify that they have the data they claim to. Since replicas are expensive (slow) to compute, and the challenge window is short, this verifies that the miners in question have not deleted their sealed replicas. The ongoing compute cost for these PoSts are quite small, I think the current numbers (obviously subject…

So I guess for 32GB, it's: - Sealing: Done once. 3-4h compute on one CPU initially, plus 2-3 hours on a few CPUs. - Proof of space time: 10 minutes of GPU time per day. What are the latency expectations within the system when my node is asked for a Proof of SpaceTime? Is it feasible to keep the sealing data, delete the file itself, then spend ~5 minutes downloading the 32GB on my 1 gigabit/sec home Internet connectio…

> Thanks again for engaging with me here!

Of course :)

> What are the latency expectations within the system when my node is asked for a Proof of SpaceTime?

We want them to be as low as possible, but the practicality of getting messages included into a blockchain, and the high cost of running snarks means its definitely on the order of minutes, realistically in the tens of minutes.

A few things to note, the Proof of SpaceTime happens over all of your sectors, not just one. So that ten minutes of GPU time per day is amortized across all of the data you are storing.

> Is it feasible to keep the sealing data, delete the file itself...

Yes, thats feasible if the file you are downloading is already sealed (note: sealing generates a piece of data unique to you, so wherever else that thing is stored is effectively your owned storage). This isnt really different than you having your data stored on a NAS box somewhere. What you cannot do is download the original unsealed data and hope to respond to the challenge in time, as that would require rerunning the expensive sealing process.

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#43

Post by whyrusleeping »

notthegunlobby wrote: post #29
marknadal wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think parent was saying the projects using IPFS are relatively unknown, so where are the millions come from? I have the same question. In contrast, GUN, has 20M+ downloads/month from known sources: Internet Archive, HackerNoon, etc. ( https://github.com/amark/gun see jsdelivr download stats).

lol it's not a HN post about a decentralized project without marknadal shitting on it and shilling GUN. got a running bet it always happens, and you don't disappoint <3 -- keep it up!

Yeah, Its pretty much a staple. Despite repeated attempts by the mods to get it to stop.

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#44

Post by johnmarcus »

If the market trades Filecoins too high, won't it become a cost burden to those wanting the service? And so then I will leave Filecoin, and there won't much data to store. Until you fix price Filecoin, the technical market will be sullied by the financial markets.

As an example, if my ec2 prices went up in line with Amazon stock, I would be paying 5x the cost compared to z few years ago - which means I would have left to digital ocean, and AWS would lack customers. Lagged hype would falsely bolster the stock price.

It's why this decentralized bullshit doesn't work - in the end the greed of it's founders/majority holders destroy it.

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#45

Post by whyrusleeping »

johnmarcus wrote: post #41
ajhurliman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the other way you get paid in Filecoin, payment channels for retrieving files. Although it's not technically "mining" it's easier to think about Filecoin having two types of miners: Storage and retrieval. Since it's incentivized there's a good chance you'll get your files back quickly if you're willing to pay more or if it's a common file.

As long as Filecoins is traded on a market, and not tied to actual cpu/bandwidth/storage costs, then if will ALWAYS be more expensive then AWS (and alternatives).

Not sure how thats true, If you and I can negotiate a price we are willing to pay for a given thing, it doesnt matter what the token is tied to or traded on.

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#46

Post by mrflux »

aakilfernandes wrote: post #18

Whats missing is proof of delivery, and thats the most important thing. I'm not just paying AWS to store my files, I'm paying them to deliver my files. Maybe this could work as an alternative to glacier. But even then, I doubt it. I'd take Amazon with an SLA any day of the week.

You see Sia's Skynet announcement yet? It is the only technically 100% decentralized product and Downloading stuff from skynet is fast. check out their announcement that is on skynet.. 4k vid in there showing the speeds. It is impressive. https://siasky.net/GADwbULtGj2NuBXJrQPBkivr6etO5uD4BSToixUUS...

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#47

Post by whyrusleeping »

johnmarcus wrote: post #44

If the market trades Filecoins too high, won't it become a cost burden to those wanting the service? And so then I will leave Filecoin, and there won't much data to store. Until you fix price Filecoin, the technical market will be sullied by the financial markets. As an example, if my ec2 prices went up in line with Amazon stock, I would be paying 5x the cost compared to z few years ago - which means I would have lef…

Its not like 1 filecoin == 1 gigabyte of storage. Its a market, people pay what they want to pay. I think you have an incorrect picture of the system in your head and havent actually gone and done the research needed to back up your angry sounding claims.

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#48

Post by Taek »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #2

Like so many cryptocurrency projects, Filecoin just seems like a solution in search of a problem more than anything else. What exact problem is Filecoin trying to solve that's not possible with current infrastructure? It seems like the decentralization adds a lot of overhead and complexity for no benefit. The main argument that I hear is that somehow Filecoin will be cheaper than centralized competitors. However, ser…

Founder of another decentralized storage product here:

Decentralized storage is going to replace the cloud. We have a working platform today with thousands (and growing) of users which is cheaper, faster, and more reliable than the centralized alternative.

One of the major challenges of the cloud today is deplatforming and loss of ownership, two things that are squarely handled by decentralization. It opens the door to innovation and allows builders a lot more freedom in how they approach solving modern problems.

Decentralization also ends up being a huge element in cost reduction. Our platform uses dozens of hosts at one to store and serve data, which means any given host only needs about 95% uptime. The network is completely open and anyone with good infra can join at any time, making revenue, and competing, which drives prices down. We're currently at 1/10th of Amazon.

Decentralization also makes it possible to build apps that don't shut down. Users today have to worry about the health of a parent company when choosing a product, with many people having been displayed by a "Google RSS Reader is shutting down" message. That problem disappears with decentralized infra.

It may take some time for the rest of the world to catch on, but decentralization is just a better way to build apps.

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#49

Post by marknadal »

whyrusleeping wrote: post #43
notthegunlobby wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol it's not a HN post about a decentralized project without marknadal shitting on it and shilling GUN. got a running bet it always happens, and you don't disappoint <3 -- keep it up!

Yeah, Its pretty much a staple. Despite repeated attempts by the mods to get it to stop.

IPFS, a YC company, is trying to censor Open Source competitors? Interesting. What are you scared of?

Re: What Sets Us Apart: Filecoin’s Proof System

#50

Post by whyrusleeping »

marknadal wrote: post #49
whyrusleeping wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Its pretty much a staple. Despite repeated attempts by the mods to get it to stop.

IPFS, a YC company, is trying to censor Open Source competitors? Interesting. What are you scared of?

I'm not trying to censor anything, lol. Just referencing many hilarious moments in your comment history where the HN mods tell you to quit spamming, and here we are again with more off topic mark spam ;)
Post reply on HN