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People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

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Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#311

Post by danenania »

commandlinefan wrote: post #263
danenania wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you consider multi-generational entrenchments of poverty as its own problem, worth serious merit, then the work disincentive could be a disaster." Multi-generational entrenchments of poverty are already a disaster, and not because of fuzzy ideas like "instilling a work ethic", but because many millions of people lack the basic material resources needed to fulfill anything close to their potential. A kid watching…

> doesn't prepare them to do anything Wait, what? I mean, I guess that just watching your parents work doesn’t “prepare” you for work any more than watching TV does, but that’s because it’s completely unrelated. Watching your parents go to high-powered executive jobs doesn’t “prepare” you for work in the 21st century either, education does. My father was a police officer (they don’t make much money) and my mother sta…

"they both encouraged us to study so we could do better than they did"

And the parents who do this are not the ones who will sit home and drink beer all day just because they're getting a $2k/mo basic income. Instead, they could go back to school, or start a business, or travel outside the country once in awhile, or spend more time teaching their kids an important skill like music or math or programming because the intense, ceaseless, soul-destroying pressure of just getting by has been lifted a bit.

Also, while I understand that police officers don't make a lot and it's very tough job, it's also a very stable job with benefits, a pension, etc. so I imagine that despite not being anywhere close to wealthy, your parents also didn't need to spend their days focused solely on survival like someone who works minimum wage with no job security, who has possibly no health insurance, who likely has to frequently get high interest payday loans to make rent or buy food... that kind of lifestyle is extremely difficult to dig out of, and it leads inevitably towards family breakdown, crime, health-destroying habits, mental illness, and general despair. That's who basic income is really for. I mean these people are literally killing themselves just to get by, and the response of many folks with far more privilege is "eh, you'd just be sitting around drinking beer otherwise".

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#312

Post by space_fountain »

xzel wrote: post #268
luckylion wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From my personal point of view, basic income SHOULD disincentivise work; it's a boost for society, health, well-being, children, etc. Somebody has to do the work though, until robots do everything (and then declare war on us), you need somebody to take away the garbage, pick the fruits and unclog the toilets. Disincentivizing work doesn't make that go away, it just means you'll put that load on fewer shoulders.

A lot of work today is pretty much bullshit/meaningless; I mean look at 85% of the US insurance / medical billing professions are useless and only exist because there is manufactured bureaucracy. Bullshit Jobs is a great book looking into to this. Also UBI shouldn't be disincentivizing work, it should be allowing people to explore more fulfilling pursuits.

I hear people say this, but I'm never clear on the mechanism by which we A) have bullshit jobs now and B) we will stop having them once UBI is implemented. It seems to me like capitalists pocketing more money is already a compelling reason to labor used efficiently.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#313

Post by chickenpotpie »

toolz wrote: post #246
nennes wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a common argument to justify inequality. If learning is the key, then why is there such a huge income disparity between men and women? Are women lazy and don't learn?

What you're arguing for is equity, not equality. We already have equal opportunity. As for the gender wage gap, if women are so disadvantaged - exactly how do they make up 85% of consumer spending?

Dude, we are faaaaaaaaar from equal opportunity. One of the largest predictors of one's ability to accumulate wealth is still the wealth of their own parents. The U.S. is one of the countries with the highest link between parents' and a child's wealth.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#314

Post by russellendicott »

Couldn't you consider older people living on Social Security to be somewhat of a UBI microclimate? I'd imagine you could learn a lot by sending the same questionnaire to them. A lot of the mental factors are the same: desire vs. ability to work, the changes in routine pre and post income, etc.

Also, I wonder if we had UBI there would be facilities that would take care of you if you turned over your income check to them in the same way that some nursing homes do. One wonders how different this would be than a minimum security prison....

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#315

Post by 52-6F-62 »

giarc wrote: post #54
jariel wrote: post #22

So most people 'kept working' but 25% quit, I think that kind of validates that a lot of people will quit, which is the concern. 25% is a lot. It'd be interesting to see numbers from those who were not employed, i.e. how many gained employment. The bits about 'having to drop future plans' isn't fair. Of course, people will have to adjust after losing a major source of income.

That popped out at me as well. I'd like to see the actual report because 25% of people stopping work is a big deal. However, it appears the response rate of the survey was only 217 of 4000 (5%) which isn't good. Typically when you have large population level studies like this, you have staff embedded in the town and would conduct telephone interviews with all participants. I wonder if the cancellation of the project…

The program was fully designed and budgeted. The new government scrapped it unilaterally after campaigning on keeping it saying "it's not showing good results"—but the study had barely begun!

Any issues with reporting are unfounded since the program wasn't able to run as designed.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#316

Post by jbeales »

simonsarris wrote: post #88

This is very misleading reporting. First: All studies so far show a pretty consistent ~10% work disincentive. This is what all the detractors say when they say it disincentivizes work. So how about this one? From actually reading the study's conclusion: > Slightly less than one-fifth were employed before but unemployed during the pilot (17%) So even worse than what we've seen so far. 17% dropping out of the labor mar…

> This is very misleading reporting. ... Slightly less than one-fifth were employed before but unemployed during the pilot (17%)

From the article:

> The report shows nearly three-quarters of respondents who were working when the pilot project began kept at it despite receiving basic income.

While they didn't say "83% of people kept working" saying "nearly three quarters" is much easier to read. The article under-reports the number of people who kept working, if anything.

Edit: formatting.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#317

Post by zelon88 »

simonsarris wrote: post #88

This is very misleading reporting. First: All studies so far show a pretty consistent ~10% work disincentive. This is what all the detractors say when they say it disincentivizes work. So how about this one? From actually reading the study's conclusion: > Slightly less than one-fifth were employed before but unemployed during the pilot (17%) So even worse than what we've seen so far. 17% dropping out of the labor mar…

No,

It dis-incentivizes killing your emotional and physical well-being for a dead-end position at a slave-driven agency that's forcing all their workers into race to the bottom.

Which in turn incentivizes trickle down to attract those workers back into jobs again with worthwhile pay and adequate benefits to survive or gasp maybe even raise a family!

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#318

Post by isoskeles »

nennes wrote: post #307
isoskeles wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you're using data that doesn't control for occupation, hours worked, etc.

So as a gender, women choose lower paid jobs and work less? If this is true and it is a choice, that would mean that women as a gender are either lazy or less qualified. If this is not true then it is evidence of inequality in the selection of employees. I don't see either of the above making your point.

> lazy or less qualified

No one is saying that, it's more of a strawman you want to use to, I'm not sure, maybe accuse people who disagree with you of sexism. Or could you explain why you use those words rather than assume we think it's, let's suppose, just a choice based on differences in average values men and women have?

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#319

Post by bparsons »

People interested in this UBI should look at the Canada Child Benefit (CCB).

It has been described in many ways, but it is essentially a basic income for children (or the parents of children).

It is means tested, which allows for the program to be really generous to low income single parents with young children.

The effect has been a dramatic reduction in poverty -- especially child poverty-- in a couple of years. This is an example of a modest government intervention that will have massive positive impacts in the lives of these families.

More info: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/trudeau-s-child-benefit-is-helpi...

CCB Calculator: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-famil...

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#320

Post by tenpies »

hooande wrote: post #239
sabarn01 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should fear being destitute its the natural human condition. Learning skills is the only way to make wealth.

No person who was born rich has to learn skills to avoid destitution. And poverty isn't the natural condition for humans any more than it is for cats, or any other animal.

> No person who was born rich has to learn skills to avoid destitution.

I can only speak for the Western tradition, but for most of history, the wealthy took great pride in making sure their male children were at least trained in soldiering, knew the family business, and were well-educated. It was the bare minimum to be considered a gentleman.

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