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People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

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Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only be true in a world where supply of necessities is immutable. In practice when there is more demand for stuff we can generally make more stuff. It is possible to build additional housing rather than forcing everyone into a zero-sum auction over the existing supply.

Hence "Yes, the math is more complicated than that". The practical tweet-sized outcome is about the same though. The other thing missed by UBI advocates: money is merely a representation of value, it is not value itself. Someone living on $UBI (and I expect a great many would) has all their basic needs met without their effort ... except that those basic needs are not provided without effort. This badly distorts supp…

> Hence "Yes, the math is more complicated than that". The practical tweet-sized outcome is about the same though.

Only if we do nothing about housing supply constraints and nobody decides they'd rather move to areas without those constraints given a UBI. But we should do something about housing supply constraints, and people would move away from high housing cost areas either way, but moreso if we do nothing about housing costs. Either one invalidates your premise.

> Someone living on $UBI (and I expect a great many would) has all their basic needs met without their effort ... except that those basic needs are not provided without effort.

We already do this for people with disabilities etc. It's not a problem unless the number of such people is large.

Meanwhile most people are not satisfied to live in a studio apartment and eat nothing but rice and beans forever. Anyone with more ambition than not starving to death would still have plenty of incentive to go out and do productive work, so the majority of people would continue to do so.

This is also another reason to fix the amount of the tax. If hypothetically too many people started to live off the UBI and not work, the tax would generate less revenue, the UBI amount would decrease and fewer people would be inclined to live off it.

> This badly distorts supply-and-demand. $1 costing a UBI recipient nothing, prices rise by $1 - knowing that the $1 cost nothing to obtain; to wit "easy come, easy go".

Giving everyone $1 doesn't cause prices to rise by $1. Some people would buy things with elastic supply whose quantity rather than price increases with increasing demand, some people simply wouldn't spend all of the money. (The second is more commonly done by corporations, but it's still very common, and the economic effect of the money being removed from circulation after being spent one time isn't that much different than zero.)

Also, that still only happens if you print the money. If it comes from someone then it doesn't cause price changes unless the two people would have bought different stuff -- which is not the case if they were both buying housing.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#292

From my personal point of view, basic income SHOULD disincentivise work; it's a boost for society, health, well-being, children, etc. Because in the current economy, a lot of people have to work unreasonable hours, multiple jobs, and have all people in a family work to make ends meet, at the cost of personal health and well-being, personal time, having children at all or having more children, getting married and buyi…

People should fear being destitute its the natural human condition. Learning skills is the only way to make wealth.

> People should fear being destitute its the natural human condition.

People should die of diseases, its the natural human condition. Women should die in childbirth, its the natural human condition. Men should die in wars, its the natural human condition. People should be hunted by sabre-tooth tigers, its the natural human condition.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#293

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

> With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things.

Why? Basic income does not just magically generate money out of thin air.

Right now you earn $4000(salary) per month. With UBI you earn $3000(salary) + $1000 (UBI) per month. Why should any cost increase?

"But then I would work less, since I can comfortably live on $1000 per month". Yeah, and why are you not doing that right now?

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#294

I don't think this fits the definition of basic income. > Whatever income participants earned was deducted from their basic income at 50 per cent That is equivalent to a massive 50% tax rate on every dollar earned. It seems to me the whole point of UBI is that its universal and not conditional on how much you earn otherwise.

I don't believe the pilot program was ever deigned to be a universal basic income.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#295

This is very misleading reporting. First: All studies so far show a pretty consistent ~10% work disincentive. This is what all the detractors say when they say it disincentivizes work. So how about this one? From actually reading the study's conclusion: > Slightly less than one-fifth were employed before but unemployed during the pilot (17%) So even worse than what we've seen so far. 17% dropping out of the labor mar…

As someone that grew up in an area where there are many families that have at least two generations of non-working family units I'm actually thrilled by UBI. It won't encourage that any more than the current social welfare system does, even if those numbers increase slightly the rest of the benefits to the rest of the population are still worth it.

Not doing things because some of the population take the piss is not sensible.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#296
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument for UBI in place of those other things is that it's extremely simple. Legislatively, bureaucratically, etc. Just give people more money to offset all of these systems that are too expensive. Simpler also means cheaper to implement. It does avoid dealing with the root problems in some sense, but it's certainly elegant.

I'm tentatively a UBI fan, but just switching to single-payer healthcare would do a lot of that. So much damn bureaucracy, public and private, for that. I think the public side's under-accounted-for, actually—so many government agencies end up having to deal with health insurance crap for one reason or another. Some would remain for private supplemental plans or whatever, but 90+% of that work would just go away. Plu…

Yep. People who oppose universal healthcare because "have you been to the DMV?" don't consider the fact that in this case private industry already has dramatically more bureaucracy than the government equivalent would. My health insurer is already the DMV, just without any legal obligation to help me.

Of course, it would still take tons of legwork to make the actual transition. But the end result would be a net win for simplicity.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For which the market should correct by increasing their compensation, thus incentivising people to return to working, no? Partially, but some of those increased compensation costs will translate to increased prices for everyone. That reduces the real value of a fixed UBI amount. It's a given that a significant amount of UBI will be absorbed by inflation, particularly in housing prices in competitive cities. If ever…

How so? The compensation is increased because less people are working, so the cost of labour is fixed (which is neglible in any case in a post-scarcity society as envisioned in the future)

If labor remains fixed then people as a whole have more money. Prices go up due to inflation and increased demand, no? I realize that's simplistic, but is it not generally true?

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#298
post #68

> The project worked by recruiting low-income people and couples, offering them a fixed payment with no strings attached that worked out to approximately $17,000 for individuals and $24,000 for couples. Why discriminate so heavily against couples? It creates every incentive to lie about your relationship status. Or to avoid sharing a household altogether, creating greater economic inefficiencies and less built in soc…

Yeah, that's a means test and breahes the "universal" principle.

The program was never a universal basic income, just a basic income pilot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Basic_Income_Pilot_Pro...

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#299
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should fear being destitute its the natural human condition. Learning skills is the only way to make wealth.

That's a common argument to justify inequality. If learning is the key, then why is there such a huge income disparity between men and women? Are women lazy and don't learn?

Because you're using data that doesn't control for occupation, hours worked, etc.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#300

This is very misleading reporting. First: All studies so far show a pretty consistent ~10% work disincentive. This is what all the detractors say when they say it disincentivizes work. So how about this one? From actually reading the study's conclusion: > Slightly less than one-fifth were employed before but unemployed during the pilot (17%) So even worse than what we've seen so far. 17% dropping out of the labor mar…

As someone that grew up in an area where there are many families that have at least two generations of non-working family units I'm actually thrilled by UBI. It won't encourage that any more than the current social welfare system does, even if those numbers increase slightly the rest of the benefits to the rest of the population are still worth it. Not doing things because some of the population take the piss is not…

> It won't encourage that any more than the current social welfare system does

Citation needed

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