People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report • Hacker News Board

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#31

Post by snarf21 » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

You are right, this is under-discussed. Look at what happened to higher education with all the "free" money. We don't want slumlords just raising prices to capture this money. It could be that if you if you are in a program like this that the rent have to be regulated based on size and location. In my opinion, UBI can never really work, but there is no reason we can't reduce/eliminate taxes on the poor to increase their standard of living.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#32

Post by new_realist » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

immawizard wrote: post #25

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

I disagree on the housing point. With basic income, people who can’t afford housing in expensive areas would move to towns with cheap housing/land but less lucrative/efficient work. There’s no housing shortage in rural areas.

Why doesn’t that happen today?

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#33

Post by eru » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

Yes. And that's why any basic income would need to come with a land value tax.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#34

Post by camelNotation » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:26 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

If you are guaranteed income, you aren't bound to specific regions or locations. You can move to places with cheaper land and healthcare systems with less overcrowding. You can work less lucrative jobs in those locations and find customers for your work because everyone including the local residents of those rural areas, will have new money to spend. Local regions would see an influx in cash, allowing for small businesses to be reborn in rural areas and spreading the economy out and away from coastal metro areas.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#35

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:26 PM UTC

virgilp wrote: post #11

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

But this is from Canada, don't they have universal healthcare?

> universal healthcare

That doesn't mean what you think it means. There are many things not covered or not covered practically that you would want to pay for private healthcare. e.g. You can wait years for services, or you can pay a few thousand a month and get it sooner. This is critical for things that necessitate early intervention. Wait too long, and when the government does finally come around to being able to provide services, it's already too late, and because the patient is too old, they are no longer eligible for the services they should have received in the first place. I speak from personal experience.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#36

Post by pingyong » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:26 PM UTC

pkilgore wrote: post #15

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

> most money is spent on housing and health care In Canada? Would not an increase in demand for such things lead to a corresponding increase in supply? Or is there something I don't know about supply restrictions in Canada?

Coming from Germany (not Canada, but maybe closer to Canada than the US in terms of spending): Housing absolutely, health care probably not for most people.

But yeah, if you live on full time minimum wage here that's ~1200€ per month, of which probably 500-800 depending on where you live will go to rent. And if it's 800, it would probably be 1800 if everyone got 1000€ per month. So in that sense, he might be right.

On the other hand some people just might actually quit their job with 1000€ per month and live somewhere further away from cities, since they don't have to live there to work. And maybe that would incentivize employers to try to create more work outside cities. Seems almost impossible to really predict the large scale effects here.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#37

Post by snarf21 » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #17

RegnisGnaw wrote: post #2

My issue, and I only have one, with these pilot projects for basic income is that its not realistic. The people in the project know that it will end at a fixed time, so their actions are different compared to what would happen in a BI/UBI system.

We already have a pilot project - the Alaska Permanent Fund, it's been running since 1976.

This is very true. Honestly asking: Is it working? I haven't seen lots of data on the topic. I also know the climate and endless day/night issues weigh into this too. I'm curious if academia sees this as a success or not.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#38

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #5

The issue I see with basic income is that most money is spent on housing and health care. These two things are supply constrained so it's more of an auction for who can afford them. With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things. This problem wouldn't appear in a study that distributed to only some individuals. We need to solve the regulatory or otherwise organizational problems of these things to prov…

> With basic income, we may just raise the cost of those things.

The problem with this argument is that it proves too much. It's true of anything that causes the poor to have more money. Lower unemployment, higher wages, anything. Heck, it's true of lower healthcare costs, because people would have more money for housing, or vice versa.

Housing costs and healthcare costs are problems, but they're independent problems.

On top of that, you're assuming the UBI actually results in the poor getting more assistance rather than merely different assistance. Right now there are explicit subsidies for housing and healthcare. If they get replaced with a UBI in the same amount, maybe people just use it to buy housing and healthcare anyway -- but maybe some of them don't, and that causes those prices to go down.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#39

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #17

RegnisGnaw wrote: post #2

My issue, and I only have one, with these pilot projects for basic income is that its not realistic. The people in the project know that it will end at a fixed time, so their actions are different compared to what would happen in a BI/UBI system.

We already have a pilot project - the Alaska Permanent Fund, it's been running since 1976.

That's not basic income, though. It's far too low.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#40

Post by mrkurt » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

new_realist wrote: post #32

immawizard wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree on the housing point. With basic income, people who can’t afford housing in expensive areas would move to towns with cheap housing/land but less lucrative/efficient work. There’s no housing shortage in rural areas.

Why doesn’t that happen today?

Moving is expensive and disruptive.