Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#461

Post by jrumbut » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #188

alistairSH wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

I think the strongest argument against this point of view is that the drivers can opt to work for multiple car services to get a handle on their price structures. It's certainly possible for a traditional employer to allow that arrangement, but you have to admit it is an uncommon thing. It's much more analogous to a contractor working for a general contractor -- if I'm a plumber I can take gigs from multiple general…

If people were taking home $100k driving for Uber I would accept this argument, since I wouldn't want to interrupt the good opportunity with regulations.

As it is, I see the preponderance of arguments on the side of it being regular employment without the expected benefits.

For what it's worth every Uber ride I've taken I would have taken at double the price, it's possible they could afford to pay their full time drivers benefits.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#462

Post by pishpash » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:01 AM UTC

alwayseasy wrote: post #449

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Employee of the Month" posters around America beg to differ. "Employee of the Month" posters are hung inside your own offices rather than anywhere a competitor would be likely to see them. > In this case the drivers who provide the service are expected to come back, hence the vetting and rating. It establishes a relationship that extends beyond a single trip or "job". The relationship between the driver and the ri…

No, I'm not comparing an open marketplace or a weak aggregator with the Uber app. The argument of the French court is pretty clear. Uber pretends to find clients for contractors but treats them like employees due to three proven powers they hold over drivers: the power to give instructions, the power to control the execution, the power to sanction non-compliance with the instructions given.

What do you mean a weak aggregator? eBay sellers have ratings, have their ads ranked and surfaced based on rating and other algorithmic criteria determined by eBay, and sellers must comply with instructions given by eBay w.r.t. listing, selling parameters, payment, contact, delivery, diverting sales off platform, etc., or be deranked, delisted, or kicked off the platform for non-compliance. Literally the same thing, except with goods + services instead of services alone.

Yet sellers are not employees. Your hue and cry that it is different does not compute.

In fact, you see this degree of control or more over participants in every market, forum, or platform operator, Craigslist, Facebook, Google, the list goes on. Just because driving a car seems different does not make it actually different.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#463

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:01 AM UTC

alwayseasy wrote: post #449

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Employee of the Month" posters around America beg to differ. "Employee of the Month" posters are hung inside your own offices rather than anywhere a competitor would be likely to see them. > In this case the drivers who provide the service are expected to come back, hence the vetting and rating. It establishes a relationship that extends beyond a single trip or "job". The relationship between the driver and the ri…

No, I'm not comparing an open marketplace or a weak aggregator with the Uber app. The argument of the French court is pretty clear. Uber pretends to find clients for contractors but treats them like employees due to three proven powers they hold over drivers: the power to give instructions, the power to control the execution, the power to sanction non-compliance with the instructions given.

[deleted]

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#464

Post by Lucadg » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:06 AM UTC

The platform-provider relationship is a new thing. A new kind of regulation is needed.

Trying to define drivers as employees or contractors is futile.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#465

Post by pishpash » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:25 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #426

alwayseasy wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what point you're debating here, the question is about "either side" expecting to come back. In this case the drivers who provide the service are expected to come back, hence the vetting and rating. It establishes a relationship that extends beyond a single trip or "job". IF Yelp ever garners a dominant position in terms of qualified leads and monopoly on pricing to building contractors, French law could…

> "Employee of the Month" posters around America beg to differ. "Employee of the Month" posters are hung inside your own offices rather than anywhere a competitor would be likely to see them. > In this case the drivers who provide the service are expected to come back, hence the vetting and rating. It establishes a relationship that extends beyond a single trip or "job". The relationship between the driver and the ri…

Parent seems to pivot to an argument about monopoly instead. That's a slick backslide that should be called out.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#466

Post by floatingatoll » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:26 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #88

throwanem wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a contractor, or are you an employee of a contracting firm? I've been both, and it is a meaningful distinction.

I’ve been both a contractor directly for companies, and contracted through contracting companies (being an employee for a contracting company is usually called being a consultant, which I’ve also been). In either case I would not assume that I could arbitrarily sub-contract my work out to others.

The ability to subcontract is one of many tests for whether you are an independent contractor or not.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#467

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:32 AM UTC

danbolt wrote: post #440

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They decide it in response to supply and demand. Would you really expect them to raise prices when there is less demand and more supply and lower them when the opposite? Which is what allows agents to set their prices. If prices are too high, some riders exit or more drivers enter which causes prices to decline. If prices are too low, some drivers exit or more riders enter which causes prices to increase. Is this not…

I'm not an economist or a laissez-faire capitalist, but I don't think that's the ordinary mechanism of market pricing. My understanding is that the individual actors on the market independently price their goods in competition with one another. In this case Uber is the sole authority in setting the price of rides, while in a market this would be more distributed. To quote Wikipedia on the free market: "In a free mark…

What Uber is in this context is basically an intermediary, like a retailer that sits between a manufacturer and a consumer, or a general contractor that sits between a subcontractor and a property owner.

What you have then isn't a transaction between the driver and the rider, it's two transactions, one between the driver and Uber and another between Uber and the rider. Each transaction is negotiated. Uber changes their offers to each party based on supply and demand, and if either party doesn't like it they can hold out for a better offer or go use Lyft. And since Uber does actually adjust pricing based on supply and demand, the better offer actually comes when enough people hold out.

The way you negotiate with them is by delaying your purchase/sale until they meet your price. It's a functioning market.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#468

Post by vishaalk » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:36 AM UTC

umeshunni wrote: post #396

avianlyric wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t do jobs for two ride sharing companies at the same time. You just can’t take two different people to two different destinations in one car.

> You just can’t take two different people to two different destinations in one car. Yes you can - that's literally how carpooling (or UberPool, Lyft-line etc) work.

I think he means you can't (or it's not feasible) to do both an Uber ride AND a Lyft ride at the same time. Unless they magically align, you will be punished for going off itinerary for both.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#469

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #465

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Employee of the Month" posters around America beg to differ. "Employee of the Month" posters are hung inside your own offices rather than anywhere a competitor would be likely to see them. > In this case the drivers who provide the service are expected to come back, hence the vetting and rating. It establishes a relationship that extends beyond a single trip or "job". The relationship between the driver and the ri…

Parent seems to pivot to an argument about monopoly instead. That's a slick backslide that should be called out.

The monopoly argument doesn't even work. Lyft provides meaningful and direct competition. Observe that the large majority of the fare goes to the driver and not to Uber or Lyft.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#470

Post by fabioribeiro » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 3:53 AM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Taxi drivers are very similar. They don’t have a say on price, just yes or no. And they were never considered employees, if they own their cars and work whenever they want.