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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were the changes and it's negative results you observed?

They moved responsibility for determining whether a person is acting as an employee or a vendor in the vast majority of cases to the client, who must demonstrate a bunch of factors (I'm not a tax guy), not least - the "vendor's" right to substitute himself for a replacement they subcontract (via employment or otherwise) to, irrespective of the client's deemed suitability of the chosen replacement - the "vendor's" rig…

> Net result for companies: building big overnight temporary teams out of contractors e.g. for 6-12 month projects are vastly less likely to do so, for fear that at some future date, the tax man could claw back a year's worth of tax for e.g. 20 contractors on the same project

Why shouldn't the companies be paying the required taxes for the 6-12 months exactly? It sounds like they are doing temporary employment. In other words, this finding sounds exactly correct.

Are there no fixed-length employment contracts in the UK? For these projects, wouldn't the correct thing to do be having these people employed on a limited term contract as full employees, and have to pay all the correct employment taxes and such? This seems like a logical thing for the government to want, and I don't blame them for enforcing it.

And wouldn't the person who's doing this work benefit from it as well? They get benefits this way, and it's not like being fully employed by different companies for 6-12 month stretches is that different from not technically being employed by those employees but working exclusively for them nonetheless over 6-12 month periods.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#452
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Ontario (at least pre-Ford) you can get full-time benefits as an hourly worker, as long as you work 40h a week or more (or maybe 35?). It's been awhile though so I'm not super confident on the details here.

Which is why so many people are on 29/34/39 hour schedules.

Yeah, this is why, like so many other things involving regulation, there should be a gradual proportional phase-out, not a hard line in the sand. So rather than paying two people to do 20 hours each and pay for no benefits, if you did that, you'd be paying for half benefits for each, at which point you may as well just have one person doing 40 hours a week who's fully employed and getting full benefits like you should've been doing all along.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#453
post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

Conceptually, a taxi is a regulated industry. The regulation created by the government sets the work conditions, and the taxi medallion is the contract between the taxi provider and the government. In a way, it's different from both the contractor and employee status which is usually between 2 private parties.

The owner/recipient of the medallion agrees to certain work conditions/obligations (non-discrimination, destination-blindness, accept credit cards, sometimes provide wheelchair amenities, etc.) and receives certain privileges (limited monopoly, right to pick up anyone on the street, right to use taxi lanes and taxi files, etc.). Whether the drivers actually meet the obligations is often a matter of lack of enforcement and what the driver can get away with, but it really is a quid-pro-quo of rights and responsibilities.

Medallions ended up being owned by taxi companies who rented them out to contractors or employees, so the relationship between the medallion owner and the driver (2 private parties) depended on how they set up the contract (and both kinds exist). And of course, private parties abuse independent contractors and employment contracts all the time, so it's really a gray area in practice. But regardless of who is paying whom, the driver should adhere to the medallion rules while driving/waiting on fares.

When looking at taxi and ride sharing, it helps to have a brief history of the industry:

- Before medallions, anyone could call themselves a driver, and pick up anyone for any price--true market competition. Of course, abuse and discrimination was rampant, riders were vulnerable, and too many drivers would drive the offered price so low only the desperate in dilapidated/dangerous vehicles would compete.

- Regulation in the form of medallions and meters came along with the idea of promoting mobility. Limit the number of drivers and set the fares so that someone working full-time can make a decent living, make sure they have safe vehicles and not criminal drivers, mandate shortest routes and non-discrimination. In the best of all worlds, there is a competent fleet of drivers, and people can get around the city and suburbs as needed.

- Because this is not the best of all worlds, taxis became sleazy and abusive, the medallion owners exploited their drivers (both employees or contractors), and regulatory capture ensured that the customer protection obligations were no longer enforced.

- Uber and others exploited the loophole of the radio-taxi: you phone in and get a taxi dispatched to your location. Except with mobile phones, that's like standing on the curb and hailing a taxi, which was the artificial monopoly given to taxi medallions. Frankly, I think ride-hailing apps should've been regulated on that alone, but because the whole industry had such a bad reputation and entrenched interests, everyone was happy to find a way around them.

- As the middle-men, the ride-hailing companies are trying to set themselves up to get the best of both worlds: set prices and make sure drivers aren't really free, but also not have any of the responsibilities of keeping ride-for-hire on the road or promoting mobility.

Another side of this whole contractor/employee debate is the destination-blindness. As a driver, you don't want to drive the unprofitable fares, either too short or too long to the suburbs without a return fare. In order to be appealing to riders, Uber et al. have to hide this from the drivers, otherwise the drivers would refuse more rides. If all drivers became true contractors free to set rates and pick-and-choose any ride, we'd be back to the original unregulated situation (race to the bottom). So the companies get why the regulations exist, but if the drivers were employees, then the companies would have to bear the cost of the unprofitable fares. So they make the drivers feel like contractors to bear that cost for them.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#454
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live the company has to set aside 12.5% of the salary paid for next years "vacation money". You can chose yourself when to withdraw this money in the following year. For a full time job you are required to take 25 days (or 5 weeks) off work outside of public holidays which is about 10% of the total working time so you usually have a bit more to spend in this period even if the vacation itself is unpaid :)

Why not just pay them more? Seems like a convoluted way to structure a pay increase.

I'm not following. You get your regular paychecks while you're on vacation. It's only once you've exceeded your allotted vacation days and go on leave without pay that you don't get paid. This is how things work here in the US too.

I don't think we have requirements about how exactly companies should fund this paid vacation in advance like France does (maybe we should?), but we do very much get paid while on vacation.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was about regulations. I never commented on the uber drivers. Tbh, I have not enough insight to know if they should be protected. I am merely pointing out, that is is easy to forget what regulations do for you. And yes, 9 year old have worked in mines before working age was regulated.

This regulation is specifically about Uber, and it's also easy to forget what regulations can harm and the unintended consequences they create. Balance is key, and that seems to be have been entirely missed here. > 9 year old have worked in mines before working age was regulated. I know. They weren't forced to work, they were hired because it was legal and families back then depended on their income. Children still w…

Oh come on, of course those kids were forced to work in those mines. They weren't allowed to refuse. They had to do whatever their parents told them to. The alternative was being a homeless street urchin.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#456
post #260

Counterpoint (from the basis of what I know from how the US, not France, classifies independent contractors): 1. Uber drivers also drive for Lyft and other services 2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in 3. They bring their own tools to the job (their car) 4. They provide their own training and technical qualifications (they're responsible for getting a drivers license, license plate, etc.) 5. They set…

> 2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in

I think they are penalized for doing so. They have to accept a certain percentage.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#457
post #260

Counterpoint (from the basis of what I know from how the US, not France, classifies independent contractors): 1. Uber drivers also drive for Lyft and other services 2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in 3. They bring their own tools to the job (their car) 4. They provide their own training and technical qualifications (they're responsible for getting a drivers license, license plate, etc.) 5. They set…

> 2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in I think they are penalized for doing so. They have to accept a certain percentage.

A general contractor can penalize/blacklist sub contractors who don't take their jobs, too. Of course, most of the time, there are reasonable humans on both sides and this can be solved, whereas the gig services operate at a scale where it feels harder to get mutual satisfaction, which might be one of the core issues.

I'm honestly not sure where this all ends up. The services certainly _feel_ exploitive when you hear about all the horror stories, but turning everyone into employees may then be fraught with new issues of employeremployee rights and obligations (for ex defined hours, time off, etc)

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#458
post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

> Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

Yes it does, and a lot of them are employees.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#459
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main difference is that the handymen can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. I'm not sure what the situation is like in France, but most Uber drivers I've seen have the Lyft app open at the same time. It seems pretty trivial to download another app and use both at the same time (easier than almost any other freelancer finding more sources fo…

Choosing between two service providers is not the same as making offers and setting terms yourself.

But it's different than literally every other employment opportunity right? No one flips burgers at McDonalds and runs across the street to make a taco at Taco Bell and then runs back to do more burgers at McDonalds all in the same hour/shift.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They moved responsibility for determining whether a person is acting as an employee or a vendor in the vast majority of cases to the client, who must demonstrate a bunch of factors (I'm not a tax guy), not least - the "vendor's" right to substitute himself for a replacement they subcontract (via employment or otherwise) to, irrespective of the client's deemed suitability of the chosen replacement - the "vendor's" rig…

> Net result for companies: building big overnight temporary teams out of contractors e.g. for 6-12 month projects are vastly less likely to do so, for fear that at some future date, the tax man could claw back a year's worth of tax for e.g. 20 contractors on the same project Why shouldn't the companies be paying the required taxes for the 6-12 months exactly? It sounds like they are doing temporary employment. In ot…

It eliminates the sizeable premium that previously attracted skilled labour to the instability of contracting. Without premium, why bother with the risk?

FWIW, prior to the recent change, I believe the situation had been the status quo since well into the 90s. I only started contracting circa 2007

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