Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, many people work more than one job.
Not at the same time.
Is the driver driving 2 cars at the same time? Is he making two travels one for Uber one for Lyft at the same time?
Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
261–270 of 602 posts
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your shed example is not the same as the Uber example. As described by the court, the driver is not told in advance where the customer is going. They are told exactly how to drive there, and the rate is decided by Uber. It would be the same as you saying "I want you to build something on my site. Bring your hammer, tools and materials. Call me to find out where. I'll pay you about $20/hr"
If so, then the "employment relationship" would last only as long as the job. When employment is specific to one job, it's a contracted job, which is a much better criterion than whatever France came up with. There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.
The French court doesn't buy your interpretation of "There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.", the mere existence of a vetting system and a rating system show Uber expected drivers to come back. The profession of driver isn't new and wasn't invented by Uber.
Uber just found a way around local labour (and tax) laws and a European government, who's getting the downside of the tech company but no fiscal or technological upside, stepped in.
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#263Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You absolutely can refuse a customer as long as it's not descriminatory, like most other businesses. Are you sure this is the law in France? And remember that Uber operates in several countries. When discussions about this happens we have to remember that each country have it's own rules and laws, and we cannot expect that the law in your country is the only law exists.
>we cannot expect that the law in your country is the only law exists. I doubt federal law covers taxi regulations in any country, it's generally local by-law or equivalent. The regulations are going to be different in Paris than they are in Lyon.
In Brazil the federal law L12468 [1] regulates the taxi driver profession.
The federal law L8078 [2], known as the Consumer Protection Code, protects (as the name says) the consumer in any transaction, be it products or services.
The section 39 subsection 9 states that:
"Art. 39. É vedado ao fornecedor de produtos ou serviços, dentre outras práticas abusivas:
[...]
IX - recusar a venda de bens ou a prestação de serviços, diretamente a quem se disponha a adquiri-los mediante pronto pagamento, ressalvados os casos de intermediação regulados em leis especiais"
In a free translation:
"Art. 39. The supplier of products or services is prohibited, among other abusive practices:
[...]
IX - to refuse the sale of goods or the provision of services, directly to anyone who is willing to acquire them upon prompt payment, except in cases of intermediation regulated in special laws"
This is just an example of how the law structure can be so different between countries. Brazil as France are based on the civil law, instead of common law as in the United States.
I really don't know how is in France and I am not saying it is like Brazil. I'm just saying that with so many countries in the world doesn't make sense to expect the rest of the world to be like your home.
[1] http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/_Ato2011-2014/2011/Lei/...
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#265Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fact is that every time you create a new way to earn money some people will do it full time no matter the feasibility. So basically you argue that we should have the current wage-slave economy forever instead of giving workers more choice. The only reason Uber is even a hint of a problem today is that we only have a single occupation following this model, but if it was more widespread and you could pick between a ple…
Don’t assume that US wage slave practices are universal. Most of the developed world has very strong worker protections and a recognition that mental health and flexible working is important. We can provide jobs with good benefits, flexible hours, accommodations for parents etc without resorting to the employment model Uber trumpets. The EU proves this is possible (it’s far from perfect, but empirically better than t…
Then you get less innovation, less productivity, and less upward mobility. Don't pretend there isn't a cost.
Goofing off in your cubicle and then going off to a picket line to keep your UBI isn't real independence.
The future lies in something greater than the wageslave model of America or the dependency model of Europe.
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
If people want to work for Uber so badly then whats Uber's place not to accommodate them? If single mothers need help so badly then thats not Uber's problem, they're out to run a business not save the world. The government should do something useful for them instead of effectively putting them out of work. Yes the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people…
> the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people we're supposedly so concerned about will be able to work anymore due to qualifications or being able to cope. This kind of whining and fear mongering is done in response to absolutely every kind of employment regulation or workers rights improvement. Somehow it never seems to come true.
Detroit says hi
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#268Counterpoint (from the basis of what I know from how the US, not France, classifies independent contractors): 1. Uber drivers also drive for Lyft and other services 2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in 3. They bring their own tools to the job (their car) 4. They provide their own training and technical qualifications (they're responsible for getting a drivers license, license plate, etc.) 5. They set…
French law only requires a "relationship of subordination" to qualify someone as an employee. The press release is very short and explains why the French court considers that an Uber’s driver is in a relationship of subordinate.
> Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unknown to the driver, thereby revealing that the driver cannot freely choose the route that suits him/her.
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
If people want to work for Uber so badly then whats Uber's place not to accommodate them? If single mothers need help so badly then thats not Uber's problem, they're out to run a business not save the world. The government should do something useful for them instead of effectively putting them out of work. Yes the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people…
There are plenty of Uber competitors out there. There model of employment isn’t the only one possible. We can do better, and we should try. On the basis of your arguments business should make no attempt to care for any of their workers, and all worker protections should be abolished. That model only works if you buy into the fantasy that employees have any real negotiating power, they don’t. The only negotiating powe…
Uber and Lyft dominate the market as far as I'm aware in the US and neither of them have shown much enthusiasm for these kind of laws afaik.
Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees
#270> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…
Laws are, kinda by definition, highly legible. Reality is fuzzier.
Whether or not Uber drivers fall under current legal definitions of "employee," I think they obviously do fall into the common sense definition that should be regulated under labour laws.
Reality doesn't fall neatly into categories, which is why laws tend to have tons of details and exceptions. Some labour is day labour, piecemeal, etc. Labor laws do deal with these, they now need to deal with "uber-like" arrangements.