Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#251

Post by Youden » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

> I publish an ad on a handyman site asking for a new shed built for £100. People can place their interest and their proposal. The price is fixed at £100, and I may set other terms and criteria.

You have satisfied all the criteria for self employment:

- The handyman can build their clientele - they are free to select whichever proposals interest them without restriction.

- The handyman can set their own rate - there is a free market of offers and proposals in which the handyman can freely make bids without restriction.

- The handyman is free to set terms and conditions - they can negotiate with a potential client to find a mutually agreeable situation.

> Uber isn't entirely different (it just simplifies the process).

It is entirely different. It "simplifies" the process by removing all of the criteria needed to be self employed:

- There is no free market of proposals. Uber sets the rate and the clients and drivers are both given the choice to take it or leave it (there is no possibility for the handyman to set their own rate). Clients are not permitted to select drivers and drivers are not permitted to select clients (there is no possibility for the handyman to build their clientele). Drivers are forced to accept rides or accept harsh penalties, like bans.

- Uber sets the terms and conditions. Both the driver and the rider are given a take it or leave it deal. Further, the driver isn't even aware of the full terms (destination, route) when they take the ride.

For Uber to be comparable to your example, it would have to allow drivers and riders to post proposals, set their own terms and prices and freely select from available offers without penalties for refused proposals.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#252

Post by cambalache » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #122

danboarder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

See, this is key. If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. It should also be able to set working hours. And deny drivers the ability to refuse rides if they wish to keep their job. It could provide a daily salary and not let drivers decide or see fares. Because this is what employment typically entails.

Are they going to pay more, cover health insurance due to this exclusivity clause?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#253

Post by avocado4 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

oarla wrote: post #101

I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question). Is it considered a win because now they are treated as employees, so they will have benefits like sick pay, vacation days etc? What was the policy when they were not employees? Would they be penalized(financially) if they took a sick day? France already mandates some of these for contractors, so not a huge benefit, I think. I doubt it'll…

> I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question).

It's not meant to be a win for Uber drivers. It's meant to be a win for taxi companies.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#254

Post by onion2k » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In your shed building example the customer is setting a price. In Uber's case the customer is not. This is a very significant difference, and actually a compelling reason why Uber drivers are employees who are paid a wage rather than contractors who are charging customers for a service.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#255

Post by cambalache » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

throwaway744678 wrote: post #104

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

The (press release of the) judgement does not address a key counter argument: a large majority of drivers work for several platforms simultaneously. Even if that particular driver did not, he obviously had that possibility: the switching cost are negligible for a driver. Source/disclaimer: used to work for a direct Uber competitor in France.

In what twisted world is that a counter argument?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#256

Post by avianlyric » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #239

avianlyric wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time. Except it isn’t. If it was then Uber wouldn’t be trying to setup vehicle leasing schemes for their drivers. If it was true then I would actually meet some college kid drivers, rather that 30 year old migrants. If you’re a single mother raising 5 kids on Uber, then you probably have no choice. Telling them they’re “doing it wrong” won’t feed their kid…

If people want to work for Uber so badly then whats Uber's place not to accommodate them? If single mothers need help so badly then thats not Uber's problem, they're out to run a business not save the world. The government should do something useful for them instead of effectively putting them out of work. Yes the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people…

There are plenty of Uber competitors out there. There model of employment isn’t the only one possible. We can do better, and we should try.

On the basis of your arguments business should make no attempt to care for any of their workers, and all worker protections should be abolished.

That model only works if you buy into the fantasy that employees have any real negotiating power, they don’t. The only negotiating power they have is collective actions taken by governments. France is nice strong democracy, it’s not unreasonable to say this is the French people’s rejection of Uber’s exploitive employment practices.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#257

Post by namdnay » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

viklove wrote: post #245

namdnay wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time So a side hustle for bored college kids is undercutting people who need a real job to feed a real family. Hardly an argument in favour of Uber?

So college kids shouldn't be allowed to offer a lower price for a service because someone else decided to finance their family through Uber?

If college kids on Uber are hurting families who rely on the income of a taxi/cab/whatever driver, why wouldn’t we step in? There’s no golden rule that says we can’t intervene in the market to ensure people can have a decent life.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#258

Post by pishpash » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

What gig companies provide are not gigs, so much as a market for service goods, which necessarily requires some standardization of units of work and of information so as to be practicable. In any market we expect substitutable and comparable goods. The standardization is what drives the implied lack of freedom to negotiate rates, terms and conditions, etc. for each and every job. It gets tedious and ridiculous, not to mention overall inefficient for all parties.

The nature of whether somebody is self-employed rather than the employee of another should be very simple. It should have nothing to do with the specific items of negotiability or having or lacking information, as long as the unit of working relationship is one job with a deliverable, the taking or refusal of which is freely chosen, and there is no expectation that either side will work together again. I simply don't see how such a relationship can be considered employment in an intellectually honest way.

Now on top of that you can regulate how such marketplaces should work, like how states make Amazon and eBay collect and remit sales taxes, and have fair advertising laws, but that's a separate concern from the employment question.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#259

Post by xg15 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #239

avianlyric wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time. Except it isn’t. If it was then Uber wouldn’t be trying to setup vehicle leasing schemes for their drivers. If it was true then I would actually meet some college kid drivers, rather that 30 year old migrants. If you’re a single mother raising 5 kids on Uber, then you probably have no choice. Telling them they’re “doing it wrong” won’t feed their kid…

If people want to work for Uber so badly then whats Uber's place not to accommodate them? If single mothers need help so badly then thats not Uber's problem, they're out to run a business not save the world. The government should do something useful for them instead of effectively putting them out of work. Yes the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people…

> the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people we're supposedly so concerned about will be able to work anymore due to qualifications or being able to cope.

This kind of whining and fear mongering is done in response to absolutely every kind of employment regulation or workers rights improvement. Somehow it never seems to come true.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#260

Post by c3534l » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

Counterpoint (from the basis of what I know from how the US, not France, classifies independent contractors):

1. Uber drivers also drive for Lyft and other services

2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in

3. They bring their own tools to the job (their car)

4. They provide their own training and technical qualifications (they're responsible for getting a drivers license, license plate, etc.)

5. They set their own hours

6. The choose where they work

7. They're paid by the job and the price is based on the job, not necessarily just hourly wages (like paying for a deck, or a custom paint job)

8. They work with limited supervision

This sounds an awful lot to me like an independent contractor working for a small number of driving services. I do think that the fact that drivers have limited ability in a given app to set their own rates indicates employment, but very rarely does an independent contractor actually meet every single one of the criteria I listed. A house cleaner, for instance, brings their own tools, etc., but they're not paid by the job and they don't work with limited supervision. Meanwhile some construction work might mean that work can only be done during specific hours of the day using specialized equipment provided by the nuclear plant / factory / whatever.

This is as opposed to someone like Microsoft or Intel that hires employees, but gives them a different badge and excludes them from certain meetings and then goes and pretends they're contractors when they're actually just poorly paid interns.