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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#241

Post by xg15 »

username90 wrote: post #208
awb wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inability to negotiate is the key point. On the point about choice, there are areas where drivers can drive for Uber or Lyft though so some drivers do have choice.

Just because the process is automated doesn't mean that no negotiation is taking place. Uber drivers negotiate all the time, every time they shut down the app due to rates being too low at the moment they negotiate. So Uber is forced to set rates at levels where they have enough drivers and enough passengers. It isn't like a job where if you just stop working they will fire you, you can drop in and out of uber whenev…

Refusing a take-it-or-leave-it offer is not negotiation.

> Then the next day he sees that Burger king pays more

Why would it be in the interest of Burger King to do that?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#242

Post by ericd »

squiggleblaz wrote: post #92
djrogers wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traditional taxi drivers own their taxi medallions That's not really the case in a lot of places - drivers 'rent' medallions from Taxi companies, as the medallions cost many times the annual income of a driver. Although, their value is droppnig due to ridesharing apps. [1]

Why say "ride sharing"? It's not sharing a ride. You can't use uber to basically organise carpooling. It's buying a ride.

You certainly can, at least in some of their markets. The vast majority of my Uber/Lyft rides are carpool rides, frequently there are 3 of us in the car with the driver.

It's called Uber Pool, and Lyft Line.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#243

Post by namdnay »

oarla wrote: post #101

I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question). Is it considered a win because now they are treated as employees, so they will have benefits like sick pay, vacation days etc? What was the policy when they were not employees? Would they be penalized(financially) if they took a sick day? France already mandates some of these for contractors, so not a huge benefit, I think. I doubt it'll…

> This being in France, universal health care already covers everyone, so don't think that drivers are going to get a better healthcare coverage.

A common misconception. Health insurance is not mandatory but highly recommended in France. Example: a dental implant will cost between 500 and 800 euros, depending on the materials used and the local market rates. Social security will pay about 200e of that. The rest is up to your private insurance. If you don’t have any, get used to having a hole in your smile

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#244

Post by xg15 »

viscanti wrote: post #132
boudin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main differnce is that the handymem can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. They can't do a counter-offer neither. Technically, as you said, they can refuse. In practice, the power that Uber has on his drivers limits those choices a lot.

> The main difference is that the handymen can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. I'm not sure what the situation is like in France, but most Uber drivers I've seen have the Lyft app open at the same time. It seems pretty trivial to download another app and use both at the same time (easier than almost any other freelancer finding more sources fo…

Choosing between two service providers is not the same as making offers and setting terms yourself.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#245

Post by viklove »

namdnay wrote: post #237
hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #201

With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask fo…

> Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time So a side hustle for bored college kids is undercutting people who need a real job to feed a real family. Hardly an argument in favour of Uber?

So college kids shouldn't be allowed to offer a lower price for a service because someone else decided to finance their family through Uber?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#246

Post by iamaelephant »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #24
pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

> Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

Why not?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#247

Post by sk5t »

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

To cast your shed-building example in the Uber model:

  * You submit a desire to build a shed to a market-making company that controls much of the market
  * The market-maker sets a price you will be billed
  * The market-maker alerts nearby builders of a construction project
    - without the location
    - without the project cost
    - without the project plans
  * A builder (capriciously) clicks "accept project" and travels to your building site
    - upon arriving the market-maker discloses to the builder the project cost and plans
    - if the builder declines to implement the project at the dictated cost, the market-maker might penalize the builder and/or exclude them from the market

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#248

Post by avianlyric »

username90 wrote: post #234
avianlyric wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time. Except it isn’t. If it was then Uber wouldn’t be trying to setup vehicle leasing schemes for their drivers. If it was true then I would actually meet some college kid drivers, rather that 30 year old migrants. If you’re a single mother raising 5 kids on Uber, then you probably have no choice. Telling them they’re “doing it wrong” won’t feed their kid…

Fact is that every time you create a new way to earn money some people will do it full time no matter the feasibility. So basically you argue that we should have the current wage-slave economy forever instead of giving workers more choice. The only reason Uber is even a hint of a problem today is that we only have a single occupation following this model, but if it was more widespread and you could pick between a ple…

Don’t assume that US wage slave practices are universal.

Most of the developed world has very strong worker protections and a recognition that mental health and flexible working is important.

We can provide jobs with good benefits, flexible hours, accommodations for parents etc without resorting to the employment model Uber trumpets. The EU proves this is possible (it’s far from perfect, but empirically better than the US), and the fact that it’s one of the worlds largest trading blocks shows it can be done without sacrificing economic progress.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#250

Post by iamaelephant »

hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #201

With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask fo…

> With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask for? Now it'll all be ruined for everybody because of the greed and entitlement of a few.

Interesting that you forgot to mention the below-minimum-wage rates here

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