Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#41

Post by 4043D » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

raw_creations wrote: post #39

nullsocket wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies are also actively pushing "Renting" as a business model where the farmer only rents the tractor for the season. Any maintenance and repairs are done as part of the rental and at the end of the season, the tractor goes back. This completely cuts the farmer out of the equation in terms of ownership/repair.

Rent or buy, the issue is that if a harvester breaks down in the field it could be 3 ~4 days before a technician gets to the field, diagnoses and has to order a part, wait for said part and come back to your field to replace it. That machine being down for two weeks during harvest could mean the farmer losing a whole lot of money.

If you are someplace like rural Australia the closest tech might be 1000km away.. if they haven't installed the hacked firmware they can't even service them without a tech or the tractor shuts down.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#42

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #23

stopads wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian tech monoculture is the problem, not the solution. If you knew the history of the industry or Kansas over the past 30 years you'd realize you're exactly backwards. Deere and similar companies got the idea to create this "perfect walled garden monopoly tractor" from Steve Case. AOL was the first to really lay out the pattern so many other industries (and Google and Amazon and Apple and other monopolist…

What exactly is stopping these farmers from just buying from another vendor like New Holland or Kubota? Every time I read this stuff, it's all about John Deere being the Apple of farm equipment, and there's almost nothing said about their competitors, almost as if they don't exist. I feel like I see the same thing when people I know complain about Apple: if I try to suggest they switch to Android because it doesn't h…

To my knowledge, Kubota doesn't produce harvesting equipment. And their largest agricultural tractor does have a lot of software (I assume it's closed source, haven't found anything to indicate otherwise).

As for running RPi or some other open-source or replacement control software, that's not a trivial thing to implement. Even if an entrepreneur releases a replacement control system, it's risky to install it (down time is expensive). Will they support the farmer? Will they be around in a year or two? Etc.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#43

Post by hinkley » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

failrate wrote: post #19

dusted wrote: post #12

There must be a market for repairable tractors and other farming machinery by now?

That market is exclusively vintage vehicles. The new tractor market is dominated by large companies using DRM. The scale of these vehicles is probably greater than you think.

Combine prices in particular are just staggeringly high. It's little wonder to me how so many farmers have trouble making ends meet.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#44

Post by dbcurtis » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #23

stopads wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian tech monoculture is the problem, not the solution. If you knew the history of the industry or Kansas over the past 30 years you'd realize you're exactly backwards. Deere and similar companies got the idea to create this "perfect walled garden monopoly tractor" from Steve Case. AOL was the first to really lay out the pattern so many other industries (and Google and Amazon and Apple and other monopolist…

What exactly is stopping these farmers from just buying from another vendor like New Holland or Kubota? Every time I read this stuff, it's all about John Deere being the Apple of farm equipment, and there's almost nothing said about their competitors, almost as if they don't exist. I feel like I see the same thing when people I know complain about Apple: if I try to suggest they switch to Android because it doesn't h…

Did you ever notice that as you drive through farm country, you will see long stretches where everyone is using one brand, and then a long stretch where everyone is using another? Dollars-to-donuts it is driven by proximity to a regional parts depot. If you are down during planting or harvesting, and the mechanic can get you running today if you send your kid to a town 20 minutes away to pick up a part, or wait for tomorrows parts delivery, versus parts are two days away, it is an easy choice.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#45

Post by thrownblown » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

imglorp wrote: post #7

simion314 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is a legal one, force the companies to provide the software required for you to use your hardware. It is stupid as a user you can only see a red light and only an "authorized dealer" can plug a laptop and see the exact problem and detailed diagnostics. Without the law your open source software would be blocked by DRM and I am sure the companies would attempt to void your warranty if they can find you mod…

It's also about serial number encoded parts. The computer will only accept licensed ones it recognizes. Apple plays the same shitty game to keep you from replacing easy components yourself. Louis Rossman has testified to Congress on the matter.

Louis has been travelling the country to testify at various state legislatures. Its been fascinating following his efforts on youtube. here is a playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkVbIsAWN2lsmovRO20_g...

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#46

Post by magduf » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

dbcurtis wrote: post #44

magduf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is stopping these farmers from just buying from another vendor like New Holland or Kubota? Every time I read this stuff, it's all about John Deere being the Apple of farm equipment, and there's almost nothing said about their competitors, almost as if they don't exist. I feel like I see the same thing when people I know complain about Apple: if I try to suggest they switch to Android because it doesn't h…

Did you ever notice that as you drive through farm country, you will see long stretches where everyone is using one brand, and then a long stretch where everyone is using another? Dollars-to-donuts it is driven by proximity to a regional parts depot. If you are down during planting or harvesting, and the mechanic can get you running today if you send your kid to a town 20 minutes away to pick up a part, or wait for t…

Ok, that made sense decades ago, but today there's two problems with that:

1) Overnight delivery

2) From everything I've read, you cannot go send your kid to town 20 minutes away to pick up a part for a John Deere machine. You have to call and set up an appointment for a service technician to come to your farm to repair the equipment on-site. After all, that's what all this right-to-repair stuff is complaining about: they aren't allowed to repair things themselves any more. And then the big problem here is: what if it's Saturday, and the service technician is off for the weekend, or is booked up all week long? How do you afford to have your operation down all that time because of a failed tractor?

So I don't see how having regional parts depots is useful any more.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#47

Post by magduf » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #36

magduf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is stopping these farmers from just buying from another vendor like New Holland or Kubota? Every time I read this stuff, it's all about John Deere being the Apple of farm equipment, and there's almost nothing said about their competitors, almost as if they don't exist. I feel like I see the same thing when people I know complain about Apple: if I try to suggest they switch to Android because it doesn't h…

Even if one of the other manufacturers in the space doesn't permit an easy self-repair path at the moment, it would seem to be a golden opportunity to expand their market by doing so. Given the way capitalism works in the US now, though, if someone like Kubota broke out of the pack by doing something like this, something tells me that Deere would find the money to buy them out, and spike the idea. IMO, the government…

>if someone like Kubota broke out of the pack by doing something like this, something tells me that Deere would find the money to buy them out, and spike the idea.

Kubota is a Japanese company; Deere can't just buy them out on a whim. The Japanese government would most likely block it.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#48

Post by rasz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

imglorp wrote: post #7

simion314 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is a legal one, force the companies to provide the software required for you to use your hardware. It is stupid as a user you can only see a red light and only an "authorized dealer" can plug a laptop and see the exact problem and detailed diagnostics. Without the law your open source software would be blocked by DRM and I am sure the companies would attempt to void your warranty if they can find you mod…

It's also about serial number encoded parts. The computer will only accept licensed ones it recognizes. Apple plays the same shitty game to keep you from replacing easy components yourself. Louis Rossman has testified to Congress on the matter.

so does Raspberry Pi Foundation https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1088506051295567872

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#49

Post by headcanon » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

Dirlewanger wrote: post #11

I fully support Right to Repair movements. John Deere/Apple et. al doing this is pure unchecked corporate avarice. With that said, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for midwestern farmers. They most likely vote straight Republican every election, and I'm pretty sure fixing this problem is something their Congress reps don't care about too much.

If, as you say, millions of people with similar professions, lifestyles, and home environments tend to vote and identify a certain way, perhaps these factors cause them to have different priorities than you? Perhaps Republican policies help farmers better than Democrats?

Perhaps its possible to value-judge people based on different factors than what your chosen political side would have you judge them on.

Your side wants you to hate and fear the Other because thats what gets people to the polls.

Whats good for farms is good for America, and sometimes that means prioritizing things like taxes, land use, and commodities trading over niche technology needs.

Despising them because they vote differently from you is in this case literally biting the hand that feeds you.

Re: Farmers are hacking their tractors because of a repair ban (2018) [video]

#50

Post by pengaru » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #46

dbcurtis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever notice that as you drive through farm country, you will see long stretches where everyone is using one brand, and then a long stretch where everyone is using another? Dollars-to-donuts it is driven by proximity to a regional parts depot. If you are down during planting or harvesting, and the mechanic can get you running today if you send your kid to a town 20 minutes away to pick up a part, or wait for t…

Ok, that made sense decades ago, but today there's two problems with that: 1) Overnight delivery 2) From everything I've read, you cannot go send your kid to town 20 minutes away to pick up a part for a John Deere machine. You have to call and set up an appointment for a service technician to come to your farm to repair the equipment on-site. After all, that's what all this right-to-repair stuff is complaining about:…

There's probably some level of acknowledgement that there will always be a subset of repairs requiring the dealer's expertise and tooling. Especially as the machines keep getting more complex.

So you will still buy the locally supported brand.