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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#111
post #101

I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question). Is it considered a win because now they are treated as employees, so they will have benefits like sick pay, vacation days etc? What was the policy when they were not employees? Would they be penalized(financially) if they took a sick day? France already mandates some of these for contractors, so not a huge benefit, I think. I doubt it'll…

I have a hunch this is actually being done to hurt Uber drivers and save the already well-regulated Cab industry in France.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#112
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as contractors, meaning they don't have to pay them minimum wage or benefits, which lets them undercut taxis. That's not really true though. Their pay is higher to make up the difference. No, the main thing is that Uber doesn't have to guarantee them fulltime work, or at least any kind of minimum amount of work. i.e. Uber can say "No work today, too bad".

> Their pay is higher to make up the difference. Citation needed. Please include costs of owning, operating, and maintaining an automobile in your calculations.

Are you implying that millions of Uber drivers are idiots and can't do basic math to decide if it's worth working or not?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#113
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The judgment is based on the combination of all these criteria.

In your scenario, you are the craftman’s direct client, a contract will be signed between you and them, not with some wrapping entity.

If you need additional work on the shed you can call that same person, renegociate a price for the additional job and continue the relationship. Same if you have claims, if you need to cancel the job for any reason for instance. And you can both agree to renegociate the contract under your own terms.

That direct relation is only a part of the whole picture, but I think it’s a significant point.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#114
post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

The (press release of the) judgement does not address a key counter argument: a large majority of drivers work for several platforms simultaneously. Even if that particular driver did not, he obviously had that possibility: the switching cost are negligible for a driver. Source/disclaimer: used to work for a direct Uber competitor in France.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#115
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional taxi drivers own their taxi medallions and may transfer those medallions to other drivers, which provides one key aspect of their "independent" contractor state: If the cab company mistreats them, they can take their medallion elsewhere. Uber's model prohibits drivers from subcontracting (transferring) their rides to others, which pierces the veil of 'independent contractor': either a contractor can subco…

Medallions are a US permit, this article is about a ruling in France.

The same system exist in France: taxi driver must own a medallion ('plaque') which they purchase from someone retiring, rent from a taxi company, or get issued by the city (this is theoretical in large cities: very few new medallions are created).

Anecdotally, the taxi company owning the medallion are not allowed to rent them: so instead they rent cars to their contractors, and lend the medallions to their renters.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#116
post #105
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The main differnce is that the handymem can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. They can't do a counter-offer neither. Technically, as you said, they can refuse. In practice, the power that Uber has on his drivers limits those choices a lot.

The inability to negotiate is the key point. On the point about choice, there are areas where drivers can drive for Uber or Lyft though so some drivers do have choice.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#117
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

Say John make a platform right now and set the rule that there's no negotiations permitted. Builders accepting the proposal must accept at the listed price. Obviously there remains a variation in the quality of the different proposals (some builders may be more polite, or use better wood). Obviously, the key difference here is that I would be able to choose what builder I want, but the customer on Uber doesn't get to decide that. So let's place one more restriction: the platform decides which builder gets the job behind the scenes.

Now, would you say that builder is employed by this website? If so, at what point did this turn from self-employment to employment?

> Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility.

If the customer wants a cake for wedding: vanilla with 3 layers and a cherry on top it seems a bit inappropriate to contact them saying "I can't make a vanilla cake but how about chocolate?"

It's a limitation of the platform (limitations made to improve customer experience - imagine if you had to negotiate for every taxi ride, you don't do this for local companies). I'd argue that the hypothetical platform described can set any number of limitations, as long as the builder can hop off and get his work elsewhere at any point.

Really, imo, the key here is how much control the Uber driver has to refuse tasks, and if they can seek the same work elsewhere (eg is Lyft available in the city?). You wouldn't tell your boss "eyy sorry chief, bit tired, gonna head home, give the fare to someone else, byeee!! hangs up" -- but you can on Uber.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#118
post #52
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as contractors, meaning they don't have to pay them minimum wage or benefits, which lets them undercut taxis. That's not really true though. Their pay is higher to make up the difference. No, the main thing is that Uber doesn't have to guarantee them fulltime work, or at least any kind of minimum amount of work. i.e. Uber can say "No work today, too bad".

> Their pay is higher to make up the difference. I thought part of the problem was that it isn't, in general.

People (especially California) would like you to believe that. Uber drivers are rational beings, they know exactly how much money they are making, and they are aware of their taxes.

If Uber paid their Social Security and Medicare taxes, then Uber would just lower their base pay, and the net would stay the same. Or in other words the pay is higher because the driver has to pay those taxes.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#119
post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

>Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee?

In Europe? (or France in this particular case) yes absolutely. I've never been to a European country where taxi drivers are not employees of regular taxi companies receiving salaries.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#120
post #59

All of this is a legal system that has a square hole and a circular hole not knowing what to do with a triangular peg. Governments job is to realize that this is a new category of work and create laws specifically to address it.

why does the government need to bend backwards to allow underpaid jobs ?

Why do you presume that laws declaring a third category of worker wouldn't include wage protections?
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