Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#101

Post by oarla » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question). Is it considered a win because now they are treated as employees, so they will have benefits like sick pay, vacation days etc? What was the policy when they were not employees? Would they be penalized(financially) if they took a sick day? France already mandates some of these for contractors, so not a huge benefit, I think.

I doubt it'll mean more earnings, since employees are generally paid lower than contractors. This being in France, universal health care already covers everyone, so don't think that drivers are going to get a better healthcare coverage.

Maybe now the drivers will have to be compensated for wear and tear of their vehicle, which I can see is a win.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#102

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride.

Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility.

Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to leverage any power differential to self-benefit, it seems reasonable that regulations be interpreted in the most protective (of the party with less power) manner possible.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#103

Post by asah » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The difference is that it's impractical for Uber drivers to directly solicit customers, because too few ride at predictable times and places.

Handymen, cleaners, developers, hairdressers etc can (and do) establish relationships outside the "advertising platform" and can find a meaningful number of new clients (and total $) through word of mouth.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#104

Post by throwaway744678 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

The (press release of the) judgement does not address a key counter argument: a large majority of drivers work for several platforms simultaneously. Even if that particular driver did not, he obviously had that possibility: the switching cost are negligible for a driver.

Source/disclaimer: used to work for a direct Uber competitor in France.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#105

Post by boudin » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The main differnce is that the handymem can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. They can't do a counter-offer neither. Technically, as you said, they can refuse. In practice, the power that Uber has on his drivers limits those choices a lot.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#106

Post by def8cefe » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #98

def8cefe wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. 'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well. >Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. That would be local by-law in most cases. >Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever…

AFAIK all of these apply to Uber drivers in France as well.

Taxi drivers can pick up anyone on their own terms (with some limitations from local laws). Uber drivers on the other hand can only legally pick up rides dispatched from Uber or another ride-sharing app. That's all they're insured for and that's all local laws will allow because they don't have status as licensed taxi drivers in a licensed vehicle.

A customer can hand me cash and nobody gets a piece except the government. An Uber driver cannot accept cash or payment outside the Uber app or they will be fired.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#107

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #99

chrisseaton wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they'll almost certainly call a local company and ask for a cab to be sent over In my experience they just step outside and wave one down.

Those mostly also belong to a bigger company that handles call in dispatches.

I don't think they've ever had radios in though, doesn't seem likely that they also take dispatches.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#108

Post by danboarder » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#109

Post by everyone » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

I dont think technical distinctions really matter in this case. Uber are trying to provide a cheaper service, by simply fucking over their workers, nothing else. And that should be stopped.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#110

Post by felipelemos » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

def8cefe wrote: post #91

rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. 'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well. >Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. That would be local by-law in most cases. >Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever…

> You absolutely can refuse a customer as long as it's not descriminatory, like most other businesses.

Are you sure this is the law in France? And remember that Uber operates in several countries. When discussions about this happens we have to remember that each country have it's own rules and laws, and we cannot expect that the law in your country is the only law exists.