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Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

nytimes.com

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Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#261

Post by hoprocker »

DougBTX wrote: post #178
hoprocker wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many decades do you expect there to be twenty-somethings, period? (Isn't this also the operating principle behind social security?)

Isn't this also the operating principle behind social security? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought that the reason his age was brought up was to justify giving him a lower premium. The principle behind social security (or at least the variation where I live) is that everyone pays, and everyone gets healthcare. His age and his health don't come into it.

Hm. What I was referring to was how current US Social Security benefits are paid for by current workers, and, generally, how insurance is based precisely on the notion that there are healthy young people paying into a system that they don't use to its extents. Not sure if the OP was saying that or not.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#262

Post by SapphireSun »

GFischer wrote: post #179

So, people in the U.S. are billed an astronomical sum for a MRI, even with insurance? The most expensive MRI bill for someone in the "mutualism" system here in Uruguay is U$ 100. I tried to explain the Uruguayan "mutualist" socialist health system here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1627862 "Mutual organisations do not have external shareholders - they are controlled by their members. Members may be users of th…

We have vaguely similar, but smaller versions, of the system you are talking about in the US. They are called "self insured entities" and are typically companies that bankroll their employees directly. They typically hire a professional insurance company as a "Third Party Administrator" to handle administering claims. I am unsure as to their efficacy, although scale certainly affects their performance.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#263

Post by 100k »

dualogy wrote: post #257
damoncali wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people don't like to admit is that free markets don't work for healthcare. What is the price you're willing to pay for curing that tumor in your gut? Everything you have. There is no supply vs. demand. Only supply vs infinity. What would happen to the food market were it not for the generally high supply of food? It wouldn't be pretty. Because of that, some sort of non-market intervention is simply unavoidable.…

"What would happen to the food market were it not for the generally high supply of food? It wouldn't be pretty." You turned cause and effect upside down. You think the free market for food "works" because food supply is "abundant"? Think again. The supply is high because it's market is "free" (not really but fairly) globally and (sorta) works.

If only doctors were as easy to grow as carrots...

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#264

Post by marshray »

krschultz wrote: post #188
marshray wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "what" is that our so-called "lawmakers" hadn't written it, much less read it, understood it, and debated it in any rational way before they voted on it. Call me an idealist, but I think that's bad. Like a tax code, usually these kinds of things end up working out mostly to the benefit of the larger parties who pay the most lawyers and professional staff to find and execute on the loopholes.

I don't know, it took about a year for them to pass it. I understand it fairly well because I've read a lot of perspectives on it from both sides. The "IT'S SO DAMN LONG NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND IT AND THEY SHOVED IT DOWN OUR THROATS SO FAST" is just a tactic to try and sway people who haven't been following in detail to be against it. Anything trying to change this convoluted system is going to be complicated. I do eng…

The "IT'S SO DAMN LONG NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND IT AND THEY SHOVED IT DOWN OUR THROATS SO FAST" is just a tactic to try and sway people who haven't been following in detail to be against it.

Yeah, well what you said is just a tactic to try and sway people to think what you believe. See where that line of reasoning goes?

I do engineering for government contracts. The spec for the system I work on covers thousands of pages. I've read about 6" thick worth of it

I've read and implemented big specs too and I know how much work they take to produce. And I know darn well it wasn't some committee of smart and well-intentioned elected representatives that wrote it.

then they drill down into exactly what kind of thread you can have on a fastener and exactly how you are allowed to stress a weld for the next 1,000 pages. But it stems from previous experiences and errors, and it leads to a better product (though a more expensive one).

Are you seriously claiming the health care bill is so big because it's a precise engineering document which "stems from previous experiences and errors, and it leads to a better product"?

If so, how much does 10,000 pages of high-quality engineering documentation cost to produce?

Who do you think paid for it?

I think you're just imagining that it's what you want it to be.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#265

Post by aubergene »

RK wrote: post #241
DanI-S wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to the US from the UK over a year ago and I can't find words to describe the feeling of not having the NHS to rely on. This whole new world of potential disaster has opened up. It's something you've never had to think about before that is now at the forefront of your consciousness. You can be young, fit and healthy, but get hit by a car and your life is over. Once you're bankrupted by medical fees, you'll nev…

Just out of curiosity, does your NHS insurance cover you while you're in the US?

No, but if you can make it back to the UK you'd be covered, but you'd still have to pay for any sort of treatment you had abroad. You'd be broadly covered within Europe if you're from the UK.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#266

Post by sethg »

acabal wrote: post #2

This really highlights how utterly insane our system is. I'm living off of my own business, which means that I don't have an employer to cover me under group insurance. But I really only make enough to live frugally and save a tiny amount each month--to me, an affordable health insurance plan would be between $50-$100 a month. Fat chance of that happening. And if it did, the deductible would be so high as to make the…

FWIW, I went to the Web site that Massachusetts residents use to find affordable health-care programs. For someone of my age and zip code buying insurance for just myself, the premiums started at $272. (In Massachusetts just about everyone must have health insurance and insurers may not discriminate based on pre-existing conditions. Households making less than triple the Federal poverty rate get subsidized plans.)

https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/site/connector/

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#267

Post by gersh »

The US government spends $793B on medicare & medicaid, and give $215B in tax deductions for health insurance. This total $1.008 trillion/yr on healthcare costs, which totals $3272/per capita/yr.

Japan spends $2249/per capita on healthcare. The UK spends $2317/per capita on healthcare. Sweden spends $2745/per capita/yr on healtchare. You get the idea.

You are already paying the government for healthcare. You pay higher taxes to offset the loses for the health insurance deduction. The IRS collects medicare along with the Social Security.

However, you don't get the healthcare you pay for. Instead, you have to pay again to actually get healthcare. In some countries, they call this a bribe. However, America has institutionalized it.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#268

Post by sethg »

tptacek wrote: post #223
muhfuhkuh wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"More importantly, the 'price fixing' approach to health insurance simply isn't going to happen in the US." Why wouldn't it? Would there be riots in the streets? Roving gangs of healthcare-affiliated hooligans throwing rocks, burning patient effigies? Doctors lining up to leave the country en masse for a freer medical marketplace or just throwing dirt in the eye of medicine to go be a quant trader at a hedge fund? Th…

No, there won't be riots in the streets, because it would take amendments to the Constitution to institute price-fixed health care. Clinton's wildest single-payer fantasy (which, coincidentally, is one of my wild fantasies) would be easier to accomplish, and it, too, is D.O.A. My objection to your point is twofold: (1) It is total wishful thinking. (2) It's wishful thinking in the face of pragmatic solutions that cou…

Price-fixed health care may be a bad idea, but I don’t think it would be unconstitutional. The Supreme Court retreated from that whole line of interpretation during the New Deal; in the early 1970s, wage and price controls were instituted by that notorious socialist, President Richard M. Nixon.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#269

Post by Evgeny »

euccastro wrote: post #235
nostrademons wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could tax calories instead. Calories in - calories out seems to be a pretty good proxy for weight gain. And I bet I wouldn't drink quite so much soda if it couldn't be had for 75c per 2-liter bottle.

Calories in-calories out is a pretty bad proxy for weight gain and health in general. Google Gary Taubes; he's done a great job of digging up and deconstructing a century's worth of research on the matter.

There is massive debate still going about the Taubes' arguments against 'calories in - calories out'. There is a lot of evidence in support of 'calories in - calories out' and it is way too early to conclude that if Taubes said so, it must be right.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#270

Post by [deleted] »

marshray wrote: post #264
krschultz wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, it took about a year for them to pass it. I understand it fairly well because I've read a lot of perspectives on it from both sides. The "IT'S SO DAMN LONG NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND IT AND THEY SHOVED IT DOWN OUR THROATS SO FAST" is just a tactic to try and sway people who haven't been following in detail to be against it. Anything trying to change this convoluted system is going to be complicated. I do eng…

The "IT'S SO DAMN LONG NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND IT AND THEY SHOVED IT DOWN OUR THROATS SO FAST" is just a tactic to try and sway people who haven't been following in detail to be against it. Yeah, well what you said is just a tactic to try and sway people to think what you believe. See where that line of reasoning goes? I do engineering for government contracts. The spec for the system I work on covers thousands of page…

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