Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#21

Post by atomoton » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #16

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

I don't know if that's true. Our hourlies get benefits like health insurance, vacation, etc. Maybe not as good as salaried but it's not as clear cut as "hourly pay only."

In Ontario (at least pre-Ford) you can get full-time benefits as an hourly worker, as long as you work 40h a week or more (or maybe 35?). It's been awhile though so I'm not super confident on the details here.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#22

Post by Frenziefrenz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #6

negrit wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you jump to this conclusion?

Is there such a thing as an employee with random hours? Isn't the whole point of an employee that there is an expectation of regular work?

You're clearly not from a place that has tourists… ;-)

Service industry in general of course, but tourists vary even more depending on the weather and whatnot.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#23

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

negrit wrote: post #3

xenospn wrote: post #2

What now? Does this mean Uber can't afford to operate in France anymore?

How did you jump to this conclusion?

See that little "?". It's called a question-mark, it indicates the writer is enquiring and not concluding.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#24

Post by rahimnathwani » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination.

Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#25

Post by dahfizz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

atomoton wrote: post #21

zwieback wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that's true. Our hourlies get benefits like health insurance, vacation, etc. Maybe not as good as salaried but it's not as clear cut as "hourly pay only."

In Ontario (at least pre-Ford) you can get full-time benefits as an hourly worker, as long as you work 40h a week or more (or maybe 35?). It's been awhile though so I'm not super confident on the details here.

The same is true (at least in my experience) in America. Over 40 hrs/week means the employer has to pay out extra benefits. This is also why employers do not want you to work over 39 hours if you're not salaried.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#26

Post by Slartie » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #6

negrit wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you jump to this conclusion?

Is there such a thing as an employee with random hours? Isn't the whole point of an employee that there is an expectation of regular work?

I think a certain regularity of work is not a necessity for an employer-worker relationship to be exactly that.

And at a second thought, AFAIK Uber does even expect drivers to perform "regular" work - not "regular" as in "we write 9-to-5 every day into the contract", but "regular" as in "of course you can work as much as you like, BUT if we see you driving too little time for Uber, below a certain threshold that we set at our discretion, don't tell anyone and change as often as we want, our magic algorithm will start disadvantaging you when it comes to handing out rides, oh and actually we aren't acknowledging that this mechanism exists at all, so let's just say this sentence really ended at 'as much as you like'".

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#27

Post by tyfon » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #6

negrit wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you jump to this conclusion?

Is there such a thing as an employee with random hours? Isn't the whole point of an employee that there is an expectation of regular work?

We have what is called "ekstravakt" job positions in Norway which could be called "call in only" positions. You get sick leave based on when you would normally work and you get pension, vacation money etc based on how much you earn.

It's not a problem to implement at all, I was the manager for many youths hired as such in a company I worked for 20 years ago.

The hourly wage for the 16-18 year old crowd was about $12-13 before tax and benefits (+12ish% employer tax that the worker never see).

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#28

Post by dahfizz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #16

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

I don't know if that's true. Our hourlies get benefits like health insurance, vacation, etc. Maybe not as good as salaried but it's not as clear cut as "hourly pay only."

What does paid time off even look like if you don't have a set schedule, though? Will Uber drivers just get n hours of wage added to their paycheck every month?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#29

Post by MaupitiBlue » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

You’re almost completely wrong.

Legally, wether you’re an employee or independent contractor matters for everything from the Americans With Disabilities Act through Workers Compensation, not to mention, taxes.

Wether the company offers benefits to hourly employees is largely an internal decision.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#30

Post by rickbutton » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

Why not? Sounds like they would also be an employee under this ruling.