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Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

spotthedrowningchild.com

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Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#201
post #152
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who worked as a wave pool lifeguard for 8 years and is a current certified Water Safety Instructor, I mostly agree. The large rafts are never really what I have an issue with. It's water wings and other personal flotation devices that are much more troublesome. Parents are a huge part of the issue. PFDs give them a false sense of security where they feel like they don't have to watch their kid. The best ch…

I grew up near a lake in the Alps and I am quite sure that any floatation device in Europe that is not safe for leaving your kids unsupervised has a big warning sign printed on the floatatiin device itself. An exeption were these orange things you strap onto a child's arms, and inflate, which they can't really remove by themselves.

I'm not sure what inflatable things exist that go on a child's arms and they can't remove themselves. Water wings are considered quite unsafe.

Is it possible you are thinking of something like Puddle Jumpers (look up an image online), which look like water wings but strap behind the child's back, and don't actually inflate? Those are, indeed, considered safe.

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#202
Like others who commented I worked as a life guard and water safety instructor when I was younger. (Everything I am saying pertains to the US only.)

I rescued quite a few children, it's hard to see in this video because the video quality is poor and the camera is at an angle that is worse than what the lifeguard in the video is seeing. Overall this victim is fairly active and should not have been very hard to spot in person for a well trained lifeguard. (And they did spot the child.)

This is a weird video because:

There are lifeguard(s) but yet the pool is full of non coast-guard approved tubes and floatation devices such. Most places with well trained lifeguards would not allow this. They don't work, can be more dangerous than no PFD, and they make it harder for the lifeguards to see. The worst drowning incident I witnessed involved a child in a tube who got flipped upside down and couldn't get out of the tube or flip back over. (I was not a lifeguard yet when I saw that.)

I think things from my perspective are in a terrible state in terms of water safety compared to 20 years ago.

Something must have changed with insurance liability, as most places just don't even have lifeguards. Resort pools I see these days are designed in a way where sight lines are so poor lifeguards/parents cannot even see children in the pools unless they are in the pool and stay within 10ft of the child. Very different than things used to be. Pool designers have reduced depth & eliminated diving boards resulting in a false sense of security. Meanwhile the pools are no longer even sufficient to be used for teaching up to a point where a person can be considered a swimmer. I just got back from vacation and the resort we stayed at had a pool which absolutely terrified me. I was 100% in lifeguard mode the entire time my child was in the pool, and the pool was so bad I couldn't sit in one spot and see him, I had to walk the edge of the pool to maintain sight lines. (The pool in the video is not like this FWIW)

Fewer young people are supposedly physically fit and able to get to advanced swimming levels and pass tough standards like Red Cross. There are fewer places that even have Red Cross accredited programs these days as a result. Red Cross level instructors command high pay, and most places teaching swimming lessons these days are money making businesses that pay instructors near minimum wage and try to make the franchise owner wealthy. This is a relatively large change from non-profit Red Cross programs back in the day.

Red Cross has always refused to act as insurance for pools/resorts/water parks, and alternate private organizations now certify lower quality lifeguards & swim instructors and we have new things like "Shallow Water lifeguards" that can be paid minimum wage. These alternate private certification orgs train to a lower level but do act as insurance so they're very attractive.

I have a 7 year old, he's been through 4 private orgs so far. None have had Red Cross accredited programs. All of them have been super expensive but they're the only choice available. 3 of them did not have deep enough water and their instructors were not trained at a level for teaching to a full "Swimmer" level. None of the programs seem to focus on water safety and have strange practices like trying to teaching 5 year olds the butterfly and other high energy/low safety strokes without teaching elementary backstroke, breaststroke, sidestroke, etc.. which are more useful in emergency water situations. Most of the instructors I've seen teaching my child show poor enough form they'd have not passed a Water Safety course 20 years ago.

The whole thing is a giant mess. I have been considering getting re-certified to take over finishing my child's swimming lessons, but the course is hard to take these days. Which also explains why not enough 16-20 year olds manage to take it. And there are almost no pools left to use that are not privately owned and have deep enough water.

Also at least by the old standards when someone who was a Red Cross WSI calls someone a swimmer we're talking about a pretty high level. Someone who can't swim for 30 minutes to safety in deep water is not necessarily a swimmer IMO. Maybe standards have reduced. But that was a requirement at one point. And this is not something that requires elite physical fitness or stamina when you are trained to swim well. Some of the strokes are barely more physically taxing than walking if you're proficient. Non swimmers get a false idea about this because they mostly see competitive swimming which uses the taxing/fast strokes.

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#203
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow people don't realize the danger that pools possess. Swimming is one of the few activities that children engage in which can go so wrong as to end up in their death. I would suggest that it is borderline negligence for a parent to put a child in such a dangerous situation without proper precautions (supervision). I wouldn't let a small child I am responsible for go into a pool alone regardless of the presence…

> Swimming is one of the few activities that children engage in which can go so wrong as to end up in their death Climbing trees (fall risk) Climbing tall playground equipment (I broke my arm falling from a height of just 3 feet once, on one of those). Broken neck, etc. Playing in the street (cars) Bicycling (can get hit by a car, sigh) Trampoline (don't get me started) Exploring (falling down deep wells, etc.) The G…

[deleted]

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#204
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So none of those activities resulted in your death? Or are you posting on HN from beyond the grave?

None did, this was a counterargument to the claim that swimming was "one of the few" ways for kids to die. There are unfortunately many many ways for kids to die.

Yeah, but drowning is way more common than the other ones. This is like saying, "Well, I am not going to wear my seat belt, since people also die from being struck by lightning"

Just because multiple things are possible doesn't mean they are equally probable.

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#205
post #61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re also twirling their whistle which helps a lot, I’m sure.

When I took the Lifesaving merit badge, they said that lifeguards have to carry the whistle because it will get in the way if they wear it around their neck when trying to make a rescue.

It's more that a drowning person will grab anything, and if that thing is on your neck it will make the rescue more problematic than it already is.

(Which is also why the lifeguards here are told to approach from the side, less likely to be grabbed on the head that way.)

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#206
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had severe cramps in my legs/feet many times in deep ocean water with no-one around. If you drown from a foot cramp you are not a strong swimmer.

Or you're incorrectly trained. You should always be able to flip and float on your back if push comes to shove, and in that position you can swim just using your arms.

Floating on your back is only possible for a subset of the population. There are plenty of people who simply sink when on their back, and must kick or more their arms constantly to stay afloat. FWIW

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#207
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European pools generally ask under children under 14 or so who go swimming unattended whether they have swimming diplomas. If you complete your swimming diplomas, you get stickers for your swim shorts to show you have completed them. Generally certain rides in water parks, like fast slides or streams will require you to have higher levels of swimming training to go on if you're under 14.

The sticker or badge on your swimming trunks is something really archaic. I had one in the early 1980s, but I haven't seen them since.

I had one around 2004 (got it as part of swimming lessons in a german elementary school)

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal opinion, based off my own experience and teaching other children how to swim: Flotation devices have no part to play in teaching how to swim. Parents (or teachers) holding their children and teaching them how to float is step 1. Only after the child can handle themselves in water (float, know when to breathe) should they be playing with flotation devices.

We should clarify that PFDs (life-jackets) are probably good for young children and new swimmers. It's the floating toys that might actually be harmful. And one skill that swimmers need, but cannot really get with an float-assist device, is putting their face in the water. I watched an adult friend learn to swim, and this was REALLY hard for him. Crazy enough - he was ex-Royal Navy submariner, so he had passed basic…

Weird they'd allow that, in the US you have to be able to swim a lap to graduate from Navy bootcamp, no matter which job you're going into.

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#209
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Europe and never seen this.

I live in Europe and while we did have some kind of stickers for attending swimming school, I don't think those were something that you'd actual have on you.

For me and my buddys in school it was quite a thing of "pride" to have the better diploma's (there was a beginner one + bronze to gold) (this was around 2004)

Re: Spot the Drowning Child (2015)

#210
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should clarify that PFDs (life-jackets) are probably good for young children and new swimmers. It's the floating toys that might actually be harmful. And one skill that swimmers need, but cannot really get with an float-assist device, is putting their face in the water. I watched an adult friend learn to swim, and this was REALLY hard for him. Crazy enough - he was ex-Royal Navy submariner, so he had passed basic…

> cannot really get with an float-assist device, is putting their face in the water. We used kickboards for this exact purpose. So you can float face down with arms outstretched holding the board. You can transition to freestyle swimming taking one hand off the board at a time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3z1eDDcGE

We used the same in school - mostly for training leg movements. Back then, everyone had basic swimming capabilities. But these kickboards are a totally different story than the blue donuts in the videos.
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