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Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

nytimes.com

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Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#211

Post by damoncali »

tptacek wrote: post #207
damoncali wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people don't like to admit is that free markets don't work for healthcare. What is the price you're willing to pay for curing that tumor in your gut? Everything you have. There is no supply vs. demand. Only supply vs infinity. What would happen to the food market were it not for the generally high supply of food? It wouldn't be pretty. Because of that, some sort of non-market intervention is simply unavoidable.…

This is a weird summary of how "free markets" and "supply and demand" work. Yes, you will pay everything you have for a cure. But the guy who will offer you a cure for "everything you have minus one dollar" is going to get your business.

That's not exactly encouraging.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#212

Post by pessimizer »

sudonim wrote: post #130
SandB0x wrote: post #32

I would have died at the age of 19 if it weren't for the help of the UK's National Health Service. My parents and I didn't have to worry about hospital bills, future insurance issues, being tied to a job, any of that crap. Just get some rest, get better, go out there and be productive again. The American system looks like a horrible joke from over here. I just can't understand any of it.

The irony of all these comments is the US government actually does pay for a lot of health care costs... "In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_health_care_s...

It's a bit insane that both the US and individual citizens apart from each other pay more per capita for health care costs now than the government of a country with socialized health care.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#213

Post by [deleted] »

damoncali wrote: post #211
tptacek wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird summary of how "free markets" and "supply and demand" work. Yes, you will pay everything you have for a cure. But the guy who will offer you a cure for "everything you have minus one dollar" is going to get your business.

That's not exactly encouraging.

[deleted]

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#214

Post by s3graham »

Groxx wrote: post #121
cwp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. I pay $120/month for a family of three, and get pretty good care for it. I know that smug Canadians are a cliche in any discussion of health care, but we are an existence proof that acabal's expectations are totally reasonable.

How much of that is subsidized by your taxes? That counts towards the final cost. Spreading it out doesn't make it less real. edit: answered for you: > In 2009, the government funded about 70% of Canadians' health care costs. > Per capita expenditure in 2009: 3,895 $227 per month, per person, comes from the government, which gets its funding from your taxes. So you're paying $801/month for that plan (three people). S…

There is also corporate tax, and personal tax is assessed at graduated rates depending on income. If their income is low, say ~60k split between husband and wife, they would pay roughly ~0 for health care.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#215

Post by pessimizer »

mikebike wrote: post #157
mrkurt wrote: post #106

> The difference is significant: my recent M.R.I. cost $1,300 at the “retail” rate, while the rate negotiated by the insurance company was $700. The shocking thing is, if you get an MRI at a cash only diagnostics facility it can cost as little as $300.

I've never understood the meaning of the "retail" rates. How many people are there who can afford to pay these rates and also don't have health insurance?

I had a bad asthma attack while uninsured and got hit with a bill that took me 7 years to pay off.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#216

Post by ible »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #193
ible wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measurably worse than the rest of the G8, according to your source ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada ) at least on life expectancy, infant mortality, per capita expenditure, costs as % of GDP, and % of government revenue spent on health.

Not true. We beat Japan on life expectancy, provided you restrict the comparison to people of Japanese descent. Japanese Americans live 84.5 years on average, Japanese only 82.6. http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/templates/browse.aspx?lvl=2&#3... http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le... (Would love to see data doing similar comparisons to other G8 nations.)

That's funny, but I'm not sure it's true. Your first link seems to say (it's worded awkwardly) that Japanese women in the US have a 84.5 year life expectancy. This isn't quite as high as the 85.66 life expectancy Japanese women have in Japan (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...)

That's despite people of Asian descent in the US having higher income and education than the average, both of which are positively correlated with life expectancy.

Even if it is true, I'm not sure what the significance would be. I would be surprised if you couldn't pick out many subgroups in the US which do better in the US than in their places of origin, without it supporting an argument about the quality of the overall system.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#217

Post by Groxx »

s3graham wrote: post #214
Groxx wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of that is subsidized by your taxes? That counts towards the final cost. Spreading it out doesn't make it less real. edit: answered for you: > In 2009, the government funded about 70% of Canadians' health care costs. > Per capita expenditure in 2009: 3,895 $227 per month, per person, comes from the government, which gets its funding from your taxes. So you're paying $801/month for that plan (three people). S…

There is also corporate tax, and personal tax is assessed at graduated rates depending on income. If their income is low, say ~60k split between husband and wife, they would pay roughly ~0 for health care.

Corporate taxes come out of paychecks. Unless all that is refunded if that's their income, then they're still paying something for it in addition to their direct monthly bill.

It can be carried further: money they get refunded comes out of other areas' funding, as the difference gets made up somehow. Their property taxes go up, the cost of food goes up because others are carrying a heavier burden, jobs across the board pay less / hire fewer, everything always costs something, even refunds. Less in some situations, but not zero. And we're still not reaching $50-$100.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#218

Post by joeshaw »

mrshoe wrote: post #64

Can someone please explain to me why five thousand self employed people can't form a corporation together and get group insurance? Do shell corporations like that already exist?

For types of employment which are often for-hire or hourly (think plumbers, electricians, etc.), unions typically offer group insurance for their members.

It would be nice if there were a similar union for tech entrepreneurs and startup employees... although maybe companies would become worried that such a union would start trying to negotiate for concessions from employers.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#219

Post by muhfuhkuh »

tptacek wrote: post #200
muhfuhkuh wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan forces their doctors to charge only what's published in a book that the government issues and negotiates prices periodically. Simple price fixing in an otherwise private healthcare market. In return, Japanese doctors and hospitals (FYI, there are more private hospitals in Japan than the US) are allowed to set whatever prices for ancillary services (like private or semi-private rooms) that they want. BTW, the av…

This is basically a recap of the Japan segment of the Frontline special "Sick Around The World", which you can watch online at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/ . The Japanese system is not without its problems. More importantly, the "price fixing" approach to health insurance simply isn't going to happen in the US. What parts of it do you think we really can adopt? Because nobody is going…

"More importantly, the 'price fixing' approach to health insurance simply isn't going to happen in the US."

Why wouldn't it? Would there be riots in the streets? Roving gangs of healthcare-affiliated hooligans throwing rocks, burning patient effigies? Doctors lining up to leave the country en masse for a freer medical marketplace or just throwing dirt in the eye of medicine to go be a quant trader at a hedge fund?

The more important question is: Why hasn't that happened worldwide, in places where there truly _is_ universal/free/government healthcare?

"What parts of it do you think we really can adopt? Because nobody is going to fix US healthcare by fiat."

And, nobody but the rich and upper-middle class will be able to afford healthcare by Market. We can already see that today, with over 50 million uninsured Americans, up from 37 million just two years ago. How many will it be next year?

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#220

Post by tptacek »

damoncali wrote: post #211
tptacek wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird summary of how "free markets" and "supply and demand" work. Yes, you will pay everything you have for a cure. But the guy who will offer you a cure for "everything you have minus one dollar" is going to get your business.

That's not exactly encouraging.

You're not encouraged that there's price competition in health care, or you don't believe that there's price competition in health care?
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