Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance • Hacker News Board

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#161

Post by ible » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:18 AM UTC

Groxx wrote: post #124

dalke wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say it, but you don't back it up with evidence. How is it that the US already pays more money per person for health care but with measurably worse results (measured as life expectancy, infant mortality, etc). How do they achieve what you call impossible?

Measurably worse results than where ? It's measurably better than many places. I say it because many many many other places subsidize healthcare at least as much as America does. And people don't seem to count the taxes they pay as part of the monthly cost. edit: edited my top comment, sources are there. Canadians, famous for cheap healthcare, pay $324 per month per person for healthcare. The government covers $227 o…

Measurably worse than the rest of the G8, according to your source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada) at least on life expectancy, infant mortality, per capita expenditure, costs as % of GDP, and % of government revenue spent on health.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#162

Post by rdl » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:19 AM UTC

wtracy wrote: post #73

krschultz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the difference between a family and a company, its the size of the group. Thus the costs for a company with 10,000 people is far different than a company with 10. Also, if you have a group of 2,5,10 or 20, the insurance company has an easier time denying you because if you get pissed and drop them, its not a big loss for them. In contrast, if you deny the right person at a 10,000 person company, they lose a…

Actually, has anyone tried banding a group of startups together until they have several thousand employees, then buy insurance as a bloc? Another idea I've kicked around: Create a sort-of incubator where, on paper, all of the startup founders and employees are employees of the incubator group. Then the incubator can handle the whole mess of both insurance and income taxes. (Bonus: Since the "incubator" now has a ton…

Just employ the employees in your 1-N person startup through TriNet and be done with it.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#163

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:20 AM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #6

The subtle but crazy part about this is at the bottom when it details the author: "Donna Dubinsky, a co-founder of Palm Computer and Handspring, is the chief executive of a computer software company." I'm going to go out on a limb and say money is not an issue for Donna, yet she still can't even buy insurance if she wants to. I've always thought healthcare access was a bigger hurdle for entrepreneurs than tax rates.…

Well, once her current software company (Numenta) deploys AI maybe she won't need coverage. /joking

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#164

Post by ciupicri » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:21 AM UTC

Lewisham wrote: post #90

rdouble wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same lifestyle diseases are at the top of the list for every country that already has some form of universal health care.

The thing to do, is if your health care is paid for by taxes (like the NHS), is for taxes to be levied proportionately on the higher-risk things that will hospitalize you. The UK already has sky-high taxation on tobacco. I rather like the idea of the Fat Tax as well. Placing a tax on fat content would increase the proportion of earnings used for the NHS by those who would use it the most. It would also provide a disi…

Speaking of fat, you should have a look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#165

Post by dools » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:22 AM UTC

carlygeehr wrote: post #120

SandB0x wrote: post #32

I would have died at the age of 19 if it weren't for the help of the UK's National Health Service. My parents and I didn't have to worry about hospital bills, future insurance issues, being tied to a job, any of that crap. Just get some rest, get better, go out there and be productive again. The American system looks like a horrible joke from over here. I just can't understand any of it.

I challenge anyone with a painful but non-life-threatening injury - say, a torn labrum, or a torn ACL - to go live in Canada or the UK and see what their treatment is like compared to here. Anyone?

I live in Australia. I broke my calcaneus into 12 pieces 3 years ago. I stayed in hospital for 3 weeks whilst the swelling went down and then had my heel operated on for 9 hours.

I've been self-employed since 2003 and I've never paid a cent in health insurance, I just pay the Medicare levy like everyone else. I didn't pay any money at all for this stay or surgery, and also received free pain medication (endone, oxycontin etc.) upon release.

The surgery was successful and although I still have some pain sometimes, I can walk, run, play sport and do anything else I like.

If only the U.S healthcare system were my broken calcaneus :)

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#166

Post by billjings » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:22 AM UTC

edruk01 wrote: post #89

billjings wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are way, way above the amount of money health care should cost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_-... So as a matter of priority versus other spending outlays, we're way out of line. Here's per capita GDP: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=per+capita+GDP Spitballing from these numbers, it looks like we spend about as much in absolute terms as Switzerland, with everyone else way, way fa…

I'm astounded that something that expensive can find a market. Out of curiosity, do you know what it is ?

I don't know specifically, but it is a radiation device for the treatment of cancer. So my word is hearsay in this case - I'll have to get some better information for you. However, if you ran such a machine 30 times a day every day all year, $10k a pop, you'd hit $100m in a year. $10k for a treatment isn't unheard of for cancer treatment.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#167

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:26 AM UTC

uygtfrgtyjuhk wrote: post #55

SandB0x wrote: post #32

I would have died at the age of 19 if it weren't for the help of the UK's National Health Service. My parents and I didn't have to worry about hospital bills, future insurance issues, being tied to a job, any of that crap. Just get some rest, get better, go out there and be productive again. The American system looks like a horrible joke from over here. I just can't understand any of it.

In the UK, or anywhere else in Europe, or Canada - or pretty much any other capitalist country - you can leave your job for a better paying one or to start your own wealth creating business. This allows the country to maximize the value of your labor. In the US you can't leave your job to start your own business because your children might get sick and die. Even leaving for another employer is tricky because there is…

This is important! It highlights the difference between dejure protection of freedoms, and defacto protection.

As a relatively well-paid (when I wasn't working for myself) Canadian, it just never occurred to me that I might need to stick with a job just for the benefits. I had the freedom to move.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#168

Post by bzbarsky » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:28 AM UTC

dalke wrote: post #95

Groxx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree, for relatively healthy younger people willing to risk bankruptcy, it's a massively cheaper option. I'm merely saying that that kind of cost is nearly impossible to achieve, as reaching it would incur costs elsewhere. Distributing the cost doesn't make it less real.

You say it, but you don't back it up with evidence. How is it that the US already pays more money per person for health care but with measurably worse results (measured as life expectancy, infant mortality, etc). How do they achieve what you call impossible?

The US pays more money because it has more health care being provided, in many cases.

It just so happens that more health care doesn't necessarily translate to measurably better outcomes (e.g. cancer screening helps reduce mortality for some cancers but not others).

It also just so happens that it's very rare to study whether a particular care regimen actually improves overall outcomes as opposed to just the thing it's ostensibly aimed at treating. Continuing our cancer example, cancer screening helps reduce mortality from _cancer_ for almost all if not all cancers, but for some the increased mortality from operations and other cancer therapies cancels out the improvement.

That's not to mention the fact that people in the US prefer to get care even if they know it'll likely make them worse than not getting care. I'll dig up the reference for this; I don't have it offhand.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#169

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:30 AM UTC

kooshball wrote: post #128

rapind wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a group you have more leverage purchasing pretty much any service. I wonder what it would take to put together a group buy app for health insurance.

> As a group you have more leverage purchasing pretty much any service although this is true, the leverage gained through group is different for other services, where a bulk order is much cheaper. Assuming everyone's making rational decisions, the only people that would want insurance would be the high risk ones. Insurance companies would loss money regardless of the rates they charge because the only rational people…

You're not considering the value of the "float" that insurance companies get. I.e. they get your money up front, but only have to pay out later. This is a huge advantage.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#170

Post by tapp » Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 1:31 AM UTC

> "If members of Congress feel so strongly about undoing this important legislation, perhaps we should stop providing them with health insurance. Let’s credit their pay for the amount that has been paid by the taxpayers, and let them try to buy health insurance in the individual market...Health insurance reform might suddenly not seem to them like such a bad idea."

Hell yes. While we're at it, lawmakers should be required to do their own taxes at least once every few years as well.

In terms of systemic change, I think requiring our legislators to eat their own dogfood would do much more for our country than all of our disjointed attempts at campaign finance reform and the like.