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SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

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Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#131
post #18

I remember being a younger pup and building fleets of machines (including overclocking, etc) for the sole purpose of running S@H, and all of the amazing software the spun up around it... SetiSpy, SetiDriver, SetiQ. I often wonder how machines of today would compare in work production to my old Duron 800, but alas.

When I first got my i7 6-core with quad GTX-690s (2 GPUs per card), I naively let Seti@Home run rampant when the computer was idle. Room they were in got up to around 90F when I let it run 100%. Sad to see they're shutting down.

I suspect in the very early days of cooperative computing, one could genuinely argue that there were "idle cycles" that were going to waste if a computer was powered on and not computing something. But this became more and more inaccurate throughout the 1990s as new power management technologies became a part of computer designs, and is completely wrong now. Phenomena like Bitcoin mining and feeling your laptop get warmer depending on what it's doing show that easily, as does your room-heating experience.

I'm still curious about the extent to which the claim of idle compute power going to waste was true when various projects were set up. For example, the press release about the Cooperative Computing Awards (I've forgotten whether this was 1998 or 1999) says

> However, the computer industry produces millions of new computers each year, which sit idle much of the time, running screen savers or waiting for the user to do something.

https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-offers-cooperative-co...

The main thing I can think of that would have supported the concept of idle cycles going to waste was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HLT_(x86_instruction)

> [the CPU-idle instruction] was not specifically designed to reduce power consumption until the release of the Intel DX4 processor in 1994.

I participated in DESChall and distributed.net's RC5 challenge and I remember being told, and telling others, that we were only using resources that would otherwise have gone to waste. Were we already greatly mistaken about that in 1997?

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#132
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought the more realistic answer was that the window to detect an emerging civilization is on the order of a couple decades. In that time they go from simple easily detectable modulation schemes that are broadcast at very high power to modulation schemes that are nearly impossible to differentiate from noise at much higher efficiency/lower power levels. Much like we have, in the 1950's it was all high power…

Radar. That's the RF that's easiest to detect from long distances, it's focused, and it's strong. The hard part is deciding if it's natural or artificial.

That may not last much longer either. Transponders are more effective/useful for civilian purposes and the military needs to be stealthy. Big radar installations have a sign painted on them that says "take me out first".

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fascinating comment, thank you. I personally suspect the engineering challenges might pale next to the challenges of political organization. Quite simply, the continued human expertise and organization necessary to manage and sustain such a system is far, far beyond anything we have today. We can't even manage to globally reduce CO2, and the recent government responses to coronavirus have led a lot to be des…

You make the case that political issues haven’t changed much isn’t he past 2400 years, but then go on to say you’d like to see us manage things here at home before expanding into space? Those seem to be in conflict to me. I do agree that human engineering has developed far faster than human politics, but I think we need to just accept that this trend will continue.

The conflict is exactly what I'm pointing out.

It's pretty easy to imagine a minority of administrators on a space habitat decide they'll take some critical system hostage unless they get a bigger share of whatever they want because they think (perhaps legitimately) they've been the victim of some injustice... overplay their hand, critical system fails despite nobody actually intending it, millions of people in the habitat die. Or a million other ways for disaster to happen because of human reasons, not engineering ones.

Here on earth, even when societies devolve into civil war and massacre (e.g. Syria the past few years), at least they don't destroy the earth along with it. But with a space habitat, even a partial breakdown of order easily means everybody can just die.

So let me be clearer: I wouldn't just "like" to see us manage Earth better first. My point is that this may very likely actually prevent space habitats from being viable at all. "Accepting that this trend will continue" doesn't mean we'll make space habitats regardless -- it means accepting space habitats might not ever be thing (no matter how possible the engineering is), unless it ever happens that we first make enough massive progress in our forms of political organization and cooperation as well.

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#134
post #80

Not to sound like a broken record (I and others have said this or similar on these kinds of threads) but... I, personally, have become convinced that looking for signals this way is actually pointless. The argument is basically this: 1. Within 1000 years (and maybe a lot less) we will have the engineering capability to build space habitats, powered by solar power. This last part is important because this thought expe…

>3. Space habitats are more convenient and cheaper to move between than leaving or even entering a gravity well like Earth's. I have always thought that this would be a much more efficient way of living off Earth. Sci-fi wants us to believe that we can teraform planets. All they ever talk about are the atmosphere generators. However, they never address the reason the planet didn't have an atmosphere to begin with. To…

> Sci-fi wants us to believe that we can teraform planets.

Given or current sample size of 1, clearly we can.

It's the part where the teraforming produces a more habitable planet that we haven't gotten down yet.

But hey, this is only or first attempt!

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#135
post #80

Not to sound like a broken record (I and others have said this or similar on these kinds of threads) but... I, personally, have become convinced that looking for signals this way is actually pointless. The argument is basically this: 1. Within 1000 years (and maybe a lot less) we will have the engineering capability to build space habitats, powered by solar power. This last part is important because this thought expe…

This is based on the current knowledge of physics that we have. We know that it is fairly incomplete. ~5% of the universe is made of the stuff that you, I, a cloud, and the sun are made of. We understand this stuff very well, in terms of cosmic scale stuff. ~20% of the universe if made of dark matter. We know that this stuff falls down and really doesn't do anything else. Does it interact with itself, with us, can we…

It's not impossible that 95% of the universe is boring.

2% of the human body is the brain, and while poetry is written about other body parts, the brain is the one doing all the writing.

Atoms are something like 0.05% electrons, but the interactions and behavior of the electrons account for almost all of the interesting parts, and with notably rare exceptions, the nuclei might as well be point charge/masses.

Just because there is a lot of dark matter and dark energy doesn't mean it will be particularly interesting in the long run.

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#137
post #105

I always told people to do mersenne prime search instead of s@h. https://www.mersenne.org/

Why is this better than SETI? What's the purpose of finding mersenne primes

IMO there isn't much of one, at least not enough for me to feel motivated to run Prime95 (the GIMPS client), but others may find the justifications here more convincing:

https://primes.utm.edu/notes/faq/why.html

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#139
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I first got my i7 6-core with quad GTX-690s (2 GPUs per card), I naively let Seti@Home run rampant when the computer was idle. Room they were in got up to around 90F when I let it run 100%. Sad to see they're shutting down.

I suspect in the very early days of cooperative computing, one could genuinely argue that there were "idle cycles" that were going to waste if a computer was powered on and not computing something. But this became more and more inaccurate throughout the 1990s as new power management technologies became a part of computer designs, and is completely wrong now. Phenomena like Bitcoin mining and feeling your laptop get w…

I would think of compute resources "going to waste" in three separate groups:

- The baseline electricity the computer is using. This will get used and produce no S@H work either way (in an era where our computers didn't go to sleep)

- The added electricity to do S@H work. This certainly was not idle, but also was a relatively small amount relative to an entire household's use.

- The hardware itself.

I would say that S@H were making use of hardware that was "going to waste" (this is CAPEX the project didn't need to spend), was having volunteers donate the added electricity, and could be said to be making use of the baseline electricity inasmuch as it would be used either way, and if S@H were to set up their own compute cluster, they would also incur similar overhead.

I don't know what system efficiencies were like in the late 90's, but I would totally believe someone if they said "idle" was 40% the power consumption of "max usage". Using that number as an example, "donated electricity" gets (1/0.6=) 1.6x as much compute-per-watt as if it was donated to run an equivalent, dedicated, machine. Maybe you can convince yourself that you were using "idle cycles" and donating on top of that?

Re: SETI@home shuts down after 21 years

#140
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh man I had a Celeron 300A that ran at 464mhz for yeeeeears. Hit the 504(?) day uptime bug where the counter reset to 0.

464? I run mine at just 450 and I was so proud of it. Now, this 464 -> 450 explains (I hope so) why I lost so many online Quake 3 battles ;]

yeah it was something like, you ran a lower clock speed but a higher multiplier? I've been out of the hardware game... well, ever since then. But that's my recollection. 450 vs 464 was the first place you were likely to see stability issues depending on your specific setup, but most were stable to at least 464.
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