Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 442 posts

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#111

Post by jrockway »

old-gregg wrote: post #91
Groxx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to me, an affordable health insurance plan would be between $50-$100 a month. Fat chance of that happening. And if it did, the deductible would be so high as to make the plan worthless for anything short of a car-crash-emergency-type-situation. This fits a fair number of cost complaints I hear over healthcare. Who wouldn't like to pay $50-100/month to have something better than emergency healthcare support? But thi…

Doctors and nurses and supporting staff must exist I got a $800 bill for 10 minutes doctor visit (swollen toe). Not exaggerating a tiny bit. No insurance company involved. "Must exist" is not an argument. Something is broken in the system where a doctor charges you $4,800 per hour. Insurance companies, obesity, poor lifestyle choices (all usual BS reasons I hear on TV) do not explain why this particular ####le charge…

You went to the wrong doctor. When I get my bills for office visits, the rate is something like $300 on average (including lab tests). My insurance company then negotiates that down to something like $75, and then I pay the $10 co-pay. Now, all these numbers could be made up, but $300 seems about right for a doctor's visit when you consider how expensive it is to run a medical practice. It's not something I'd want to have to pay every week because I would die if I didn't, but it's not exactly financial ruination either.

If I had some rare disease but still wanted to do a startup, I think I would just work for Starbucks for 20 hours a week or something, simply for the health insurance.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#112

Post by underwater »

wtracy wrote: post #73
krschultz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the difference between a family and a company, its the size of the group. Thus the costs for a company with 10,000 people is far different than a company with 10. Also, if you have a group of 2,5,10 or 20, the insurance company has an easier time denying you because if you get pissed and drop them, its not a big loss for them. In contrast, if you deny the right person at a 10,000 person company, they lose a…

Actually, has anyone tried banding a group of startups together until they have several thousand employees, then buy insurance as a bloc? Another idea I've kicked around: Create a sort-of incubator where, on paper, all of the startup founders and employees are employees of the incubator group. Then the incubator can handle the whole mess of both insurance and income taxes. (Bonus: Since the "incubator" now has a ton…

Sounds like an umbrella company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_company). Almost all contracting in the UK is through umbrella companies or a single member LLC's rather than directly between the employee and employer.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#113

Post by dgabriel »

kenjackson wrote: post #43
encoderer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 28 in Florida. I have a very decent plan for $75 a month. I have to pay for office vists (tho I am reimbused $50 for each one, they're usually around $125 or so) but i have a very low deductible that will cover me for any major illness or accident, and even for services beyond my coverage I get the benefit of the lower negotiated insurance company rates. You can see these plans for yourself by checking our Blue C…

Wow, for a family of five I pay $1200/month. And not a very low deductible. Also Blue Cross... go figure.

I pay about $550/mo for the 5 of us, but that's just because my employer pays 2/3s of the cost.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#115

Post by MaysonL »

Lewisham wrote: post #90
rdouble wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same lifestyle diseases are at the top of the list for every country that already has some form of universal health care.

The thing to do, is if your health care is paid for by taxes (like the NHS), is for taxes to be levied proportionately on the higher-risk things that will hospitalize you. The UK already has sky-high taxation on tobacco. I rather like the idea of the Fat Tax as well. Placing a tax on fat content would increase the proportion of earnings used for the NHS by those who would use it the most. It would also provide a disi…

Fat content has virtually nothing to do with obesity. I get 20-30% of my calories from fat (mainly butter and cheese), weigh about 155 lb., 6-1, lipid levels good.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#116

Post by DanielBMarkham »

wtracy wrote: post #96
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't had health insurance in over 10 years. I get sick, my family loses everything. During that time I've been self-employed and worked on several startups. You think telling me a story about your friend is somehow going to enlighten me on the subject of health insurance? How many anecdotes would we need to share to gain any ground in this discussion?

From your earlier post: while people who want to strike out will, and figure out how to make it work. You claim that anyone who wants to be self-employed is able to do so. The next post provides a counterexample to your blanket statement. Then you get angry that he's telling an "anecdote"?

Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

I make a generalization that people who want to will form a startup regardless of circumstances.

The counterpoint to that was providing an example of somebody who didn't form a startup because of some condition.

That's known as a counter-factual: taking what actually happened and changing something and saying that it would come out differently had this one thing changed. Sure, the person in question says that's the reason, but my entire point rests on the fact that people will rationalize.

I, on the other hand, provide a _real_ example of somebody without insurance who has formed a startup, and on top of that I'm the one saying that both of these stories don't tell us much.

So where am I in error? Counter-factuals are horrible ways to argue, and anecdotes don't get us anywhere, no matter which point they support, and the conversation isn't really going anywhere. In fact, this entire sub-thread started when I announced that this looked to me like a fruitless line of discussion. I flagged the story.

So you agree, right? Or are you trying to say that somehow there is some progress being made that I missed out on?

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#117

Post by Groxx »

muhfuhkuh wrote: post #110
Groxx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to me, an affordable health insurance plan would be between $50-$100 a month. Fat chance of that happening. And if it did, the deductible would be so high as to make the plan worthless for anything short of a car-crash-emergency-type-situation. This fits a fair number of cost complaints I hear over healthcare. Who wouldn't like to pay $50-100/month to have something better than emergency healthcare support? But thi…

Japan forces their doctors to charge only what's published in a book that the government issues and negotiates prices periodically. Simple price fixing in an otherwise private healthcare market. In return, Japanese doctors and hospitals (FYI, there are more private hospitals in Japan than the US) are allowed to set whatever prices for ancillary services (like private or semi-private rooms) that they want. BTW, the av…

That's an interesting way to do things, didn't know Japan did that. Thanks for the info! How much do things like emergency services cost? Do they fall under ancillary or not? Anything that's nigh-essential that does? Know if the hospitals are supported by the government, and how much taxes it takes?

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#118

Post by marshray »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #79

The article does not mention that money _can_ buy you health _care_. Given this, there should be market opportunity for a company which courts the supposed legions of people denied for picayune reasons.

Not in any fair-market sort of way.

The price of prescription meds, tests, and procedures is "negotiated" between pharmacies, providers, and insurance companies. The Dr. bills "X" and the insurance company comes back with "X/2". The Dr. may try to collect the difference from you, but they usually don't.

If you aren't paying with insurance, you have to pay many times higher prices than an insurance company would for the same treatment.

Last I heard 80% of the market did have some type of coverage. Of the remaining 20%, many of them simply can't pay their emergency room bills. So if you have a decent income and don't have insurance, you are a very small minority with no bargaining power.

In other words, no, you are not able to purchase health care in any sort of functioning market.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#119

Post by Groxx »

rdouble wrote: post #93
old-gregg wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors and nurses and supporting staff must exist I got a $800 bill for 10 minutes doctor visit (swollen toe). Not exaggerating a tiny bit. No insurance company involved. "Must exist" is not an argument. Something is broken in the system where a doctor charges you $4,800 per hour. Insurance companies, obesity, poor lifestyle choices (all usual BS reasons I hear on TV) do not explain why this particular ####le charge…

Something is broken in the system where a doctor charges you $4,800 per hour That's about right. A few years ago, I thought I had food poisoning and 40 uninsured minutes in the ER set me back $3800. But I was "lucky." I've had friends who were in bicycle accidents and ended up with $13,000 and $37,000 hospital bills.

ER bills are absolutely insane. It's not hard to break a few dozen thousand dollars in almost no time for almost no treatment. It strikes me as opportunistic preying.

Re: Money Won’t Buy You Health Insurance

#120

Post by carlygeehr »

SandB0x wrote: post #32

I would have died at the age of 19 if it weren't for the help of the UK's National Health Service. My parents and I didn't have to worry about hospital bills, future insurance issues, being tied to a job, any of that crap. Just get some rest, get better, go out there and be productive again. The American system looks like a horrible joke from over here. I just can't understand any of it.

I challenge anyone with a painful but non-life-threatening injury - say, a torn labrum, or a torn ACL - to go live in Canada or the UK and see what their treatment is like compared to here. Anyone?
Post reply on HN