TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules • Hacker News Board

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#21

Post by nickconfer » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 8:35 PM UTC

marshray wrote: post #16

nickconfer wrote: post #13

This feels more like a good marketing attempt by TinyGrab than the real deal. For starters, just like many other services calling foul, TinyGrab has not removed its app from the app store. Everyone is waiting out the deadline for compliance which seems to indicate that companies are hoping Apple will change course and are more or less playing a game of chicken in the meantime. Many of the issues they also explain as…

This feels more like a good marketing attempt by TinyGrab than the real deal. Are you saying their analysis is wrong and the new terms of the Apple store will permit their app? This is an honest question, I totally don't understand Apple's development and distribution model.

I think they are correct, Apple could reject their app based on the TOS. Its unclear whether or not they would. I imagine this will be rather murky for a while for all apps of this sort.

What I mean by not the real deal though is that TinyGrab doesn't appear to have much of a presence on iOS devices. Apple could have possibly said, "We need 200 hours of additional programming work from you or we'll reject your app in the future" and they may have bailed. One indicator of this is their complaints of the $99 developer fee. I think most successful companies would welcome a small yearly fee simply because it would reduce the number of low quality competing apps entering their market place. A small yearly fee helps ensure to some degree that the app developer has some serious intentions to create something meaningful.

A lot of the complaining is fully justified. There are other cases like Rhapsody where the company has over 700k subscribers in the US and the CEO has admitted most of these users listen to Rhapsody through an iOS device. That has real implications for them as a subscriber service with small margins. In TinyGrab's case though, they could work around the terms of service and still provide access to their user base. They might have to take a large cut in their subscription fee, or increase their prices, but for a basic screenshot/share service they have options.

The fact they are not pursuing those options, or at least publicly saying they won't be, indicates to me they either have a smart PR team that realized the opportunity here or they just are not successful enough on iOS to justify continuing anyways.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#22

Post by rimantas » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 8:45 PM UTC

parbo wrote: post #17

So, how long until Cydias app-store becomes the de facto app-store for subscription services?

Never. Recall how many millions iOS users are there, and how many of them have ability to jailbreak their devices. Then how many would want to. I do program for iOS and I am not a bit interested in Cydia.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#23

Post by tomkarlo » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 9:23 PM UTC

msbarnett wrote: post #7

st3fan wrote: post #2

I wonder if they are right about having to give 30% to Apple in this case. From what I read it sounds like you are only supposed to do that when you allow people to actually register / sign up for the service from the iOS app. If you already have an account and you simply login to use the iOS app as a 'companion' app, there is no Apple greed involved. No?

If you allow people to subscribe outside the app, you also must add functionality to allow them to subscribe through the app, and subscriptions through the latter mechanism will cost you the 30% Apple Tithe. A lot of companies just can't afford to have a group of users who cost the same as everyone else but only bring in 70% as much revenue.

That depends on your marginal cost of supporting an incremental user. For most Internet services, that marginal cost approaches zero. 30% sounds like a lot of commission versus real world purchases but when gross margin is close to 100% on an incremental subscriber, it's not nearly as egregious an ask.

To make what I'm saying more concrete: For a physical object, it's not uncommon for the cost of the item to be 90% of its price. So the seller makes 10%, and a "reasonable" 3% commission on sales price = 30% of the profit.

Whereas for a totally virtual service there's a large fixed cost to set it up (programming, servers, etc) but relatively little "per user" cost. Cost per unit approaches zero, marginal profit approaches 100% of price, and 30% of price is approximately 30% of the marginal profit from selling an extra unit.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#24

Post by Bossman » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 9:49 PM UTC

Sad, but many people saw this coming when Apple announced the new terms. It's just another step for Apple being more restrictive. What's next?

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#25

Post by lukifer » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 9:59 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #23

msbarnett wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you allow people to subscribe outside the app, you also must add functionality to allow them to subscribe through the app, and subscriptions through the latter mechanism will cost you the 30% Apple Tithe. A lot of companies just can't afford to have a group of users who cost the same as everyone else but only bring in 70% as much revenue.

That depends on your marginal cost of supporting an incremental user. For most Internet services, that marginal cost approaches zero. 30% sounds like a lot of commission versus real world purchases but when gross margin is close to 100% on an incremental subscriber, it's not nearly as egregious an ask. To make what I'm saying more concrete: For a physical object, it's not uncommon for the cost of the item to be 90% o…

> ... relatively little "per user" cost.

This makes a lot of assumptions about the business model of developers. For a BaseCamp-like product, it is mostly true, support costs notwithstanding. But a video- or music-streaming service that pays out to content providers on a per-item basis has much more in common with a brick-and-mortar retailer when it comes to profit margins.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#26

Post by lukifer » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 10:06 PM UTC

I can't help but wonder if Apple would allow developers to follow the letter of the law, but attempt to circumvent the revenue drain via UI. Which is to say: Provide subscription options through both web and iOS APIs, but specifically advise users that signing up through iOS is damaging to the survival of the service, and strongly encouraging them to use a user-friendly UIWebView to sign up instead. Perhaps even non-monetary rewards could be attached to avoiding the iOS signup process (badges, points, etc.)

Not that I put it past Apple to reject it anyway. Just wondering how far that line could be pushed.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#27

Post by Bud » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 10:14 PM UTC

Looks like Steve Jobs, or someone pretending to be him, has weighed in with a comment on that page:

Steve Jobs Says: February 21st, 2011 at 7:53 pm Hey Guys Work your numbers a little bit and then tell me what you think you are actually losing out on. 30% or 70% towards your bottom-line.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#28

Post by Bud » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 10:18 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #27

Looks like Steve Jobs, or someone pretending to be him, has weighed in with a comment on that page: Steve Jobs Says: February 21st, 2011 at 7:53 pm Hey Guys Work your numbers a little bit and then tell me what you think you are actually losing out on. 30% or 70% towards your bottom-line.

Uh, why is this getting downvoted? It's a purely informational post. Is it not considered relevant if the Steve weighed in?

Seems there's a bit of a pattern in these threads of downvoting based on disagreement with the ESP-perceived viewpoint of the poster. Not cool.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#29

Post by othermaciej » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 10:20 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #28

Bud wrote: post #27

Looks like Steve Jobs, or someone pretending to be him, has weighed in with a comment on that page: Steve Jobs Says: February 21st, 2011 at 7:53 pm Hey Guys Work your numbers a little bit and then tell me what you think you are actually losing out on. 30% or 70% towards your bottom-line.

Uh, why is this getting downvoted? It's a purely informational post. Is it not considered relevant if the Steve weighed in? Seems there's a bit of a pattern in these threads of downvoting based on disagreement with the ESP-perceived viewpoint of the poster. Not cool.

I'm guessing the downvotes are because it's vanishingly unlikely that Steve Jobs posted a blog comment.

Re: TinyGrab abandons iOS because of new App Store rules

#30

Post by jerome_bent » Mon, Feb 21, 2011, 10:23 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #22

parbo wrote: post #17

So, how long until Cydias app-store becomes the de facto app-store for subscription services?

Never. Recall how many millions iOS users are there, and how many of them have ability to jailbreak their devices. Then how many would want to. I do program for iOS and I am not a bit interested in Cydia.

Well maybe not for you but Grooveshark moved to Cydia after it was kicked out of the AppStore...