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Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

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Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#61

Post by ramchip »

danudey wrote: post #45
arach wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're exaggerating. Parisians may tease Quebecers, but that's just to keep themselves in teasing shape. Teasing is a sport, you gotta practice. Most French people will be able to understand most Montrealers. It should be noted that France itself has many regional accents that are quite strong. Also to be noted, there is a steady flow of young French people immigrating to Montreal.

Most French people will be able to understand most Montrealers sometimes, in the same way that someone from Britain would be able to understand a Cajun sometimes. The language is very divergent, with franglais words sprinkled here or there, shortened words, differing word usage, etc. On top of that, for the reasons above as well as others (including their accent), people from France really dislike listening to people…

You seem to be living in Canada, but perhaps somewhere else? Our views are pretty different.

I'm a francophone, born in Quebec. I have never seen a francophone (from anywhere in the world) speak in English to another because the accent was too strong. Most francophones in Montreal actually speak pretty bad English, at least once you leave the technical spheres, and any Quebecois can speak something closer to "international French" when he knows an European is listening.

A large portion of my classmates at university were French people. They had no trouble understanding the local accent. They might be puzzled by some special expressions we have for snow, for "take a chair", for shortened forms ("je ne le sais pas"->"jelsépa"), swear words, etc. but nothing that can't be explained fairly quickly. The difference between French from France and from Quebec is important but I'd say comparing it to Cajun is exaggeration. It is not my impression that French people dislike Montreal French, but rather that they find it amusing at first (it sounds like a rural accent) and eventually just get used to it. Many Quebecois humorists and singers are popular in France as well.

Franglais is a large debate, but in short, the French are as guilty of it, if not more than the Quebecois. Many words like "email" or "shopping" tend to be said in English in France but in French in Quebec ("courriel", "magasinage").

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#62

Post by danudey »

neilk wrote: post #58
danudey wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get all of those benefits by living in Vancouver (though rent isn't as cheap here, apartments and suites are much better maintained). On top of that, the weather is better, the people are friendlier, and you don't have to worry as much about not getting a position solely because your language skills aren't up to snuff.

Just a slight correction on "friendlier"; people in English Canada are more friendly according to the American norm, where you have one (maybe two) close confidants, and then many shallow cordial relations. French Canadians do it another way. They have a small circle of friends they would do anything for, but most of the outside world is excluded. If you move to Montreal it will take a few years to break through into…

Well I found even outside of actual relationships, people in Vancouver are much friendlier. I moved to Vancouver from Montreal with a roommate who'd grown up in Montreal, and it took her well over a year to accept the fact that when people in Vancouver are nice to you, smile, etc. they're not being fake, they're actually being nice. She didn't understand, because it doesn't happen in Montreal.

In Vancouver, I find that people will be more open to starting (or participating in) conversations on the bus, being asked for directions, chatting at a cafe (including baristas, cashiers, etc.), and so on. In Montreal, even with those people who did speak English, the attitude I saw from people was generally 'get out of my face'.

People in Montreal, in my experience, are absorbed in themselves and have no interest in anyone around them. They won't (as a rule) try to strike up a conversation on the street, they won't offer to help you if you're having trouble e.g. carrying a package, they won't hold doors. There are exceptions, but they're much more rare than in Vancouver, where everyone generally seems pretty content with their lives and is happy to lend a smile or a helping hand or a compliment to someone they've never met before or will again.

The other reason I enjoy Vancouver quite a bit (aside from the weather) is the living accommodations. It's said that the cost of living in Vancouver is higher, but from my point of view it tends to be pretty close, in the sense that you have to pay more in Vancouver but you also get nicer places. In Montreal, there is no 'damage deposit' when you rent an apartment, so there's much less incentive to be careful when you live in a place. Likewise, if there is a problem after you've left the landlord has to pay for it out of pocket (or try to fight with the tenancy board, which is a futile endeavour for small sums). The places tend to get run down and stay that way for longer. Even most 'renovated' places I saw were below what I'd consider liveable. The cost of renting a place is convenient though, considering that the wages in Montreal are (often considerably) lower than in Vancouver or Toronto.

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#63

Post by danudey »

ramchip wrote: post #61
danudey wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most French people will be able to understand most Montrealers sometimes, in the same way that someone from Britain would be able to understand a Cajun sometimes. The language is very divergent, with franglais words sprinkled here or there, shortened words, differing word usage, etc. On top of that, for the reasons above as well as others (including their accent), people from France really dislike listening to people…

You seem to be living in Canada, but perhaps somewhere else? Our views are pretty different. I'm a francophone, born in Quebec. I have never seen a francophone (from anywhere in the world) speak in English to another because the accent was too strong. Most francophones in Montreal actually speak pretty bad English, at least once you leave the technical spheres, and any Quebecois can speak something closer to "interna…

Well, my sources for my comments on French vs. Quebecois consist of ten or twelve French individuals I've spoken with on the topic (whose views were unanimous, and who spoke for the people they knew at home as well). Likewise, my views on Quebecois vs. Acadians are taken from an Acadian friend who had moved to Montreal, and whose coworkers refused outright to speak French to her because they didn't want to listen to her accent.

Put another way: I've never met someone from France who didn't speak ill of Quebecois French when asked, and I've never met an Acadian who felt entirely welcomed in Montreal. They could be exceptions.

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#64

Post by delano »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #54
delano wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not limited to language. It's also very much about culture. Montreal is literally and figuratively half-way between North America and Europe.

Montreal is literally and figuratively half-way between North America and Europe. Either I'm really bad at geography, or it's only figuratively and not literally.

It's a literal statement for people on the west coast. It becomes figurative as you go east.

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#65

Post by arach »

olalonde wrote: post #2

Glad to see there are fellow Montrealers on HN. As a totally unrelated side note, it would be nice if it was possible to create "groups" on GitHub so that smaller communities can unite their forces on open source projects. It would also make it easier to discover related projects.

guildhub.com? guilds for github...

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#66

Post by arach »

p90x wrote: post #52
bravura wrote: post #30

[disclosure: I'm a personal friend of the author of this article.] I lived in Montreal for three years, or four winters, depending upon how you count. I believe that Montreal has the most important element necessary to become an open-source startup hub, namely a lot of good talent. The language barrier exists, but is not strong enough that it has hindered any open-source efforts in Montreal (as far as I've seen). The…

i don't understand the purpose of the article, or of your post. if the city has what it takes it will happen. if it doesn't it won't. everything else is conversation. that is how i look at it, what am i missing?

I remember someone making a speech (borrowed from someone else) about "just words". Words matter.

Conversations matter.

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#67

Post by jleyank »

gamble wrote: post #23
jleyank wrote: post #12

Getting Yanks to Montreal is easy as long as (a) they are single, (b) they are married and the spouse doesn't work and there are no school-age kids or (c) the spouse knows French and there are no school-age kids. Getting a work visa at the border merely takes a CV and an offer letter. School-age kids require French schooling, and customer-facing positions require French (both of which might be show stoppers). It's a…

My husband's company opened a (English-speaking) branch office in Montreal two years ago. Language is definitely an issue for working spouses. It is very difficult to find an English-only job in Montreal if you don't work in tech or finance. Plus, the insular Anglophone community that used to make it possible to function in Montreal without French doesn't exist anymore. You need to learn French. Thankfully, if you're…

I might be wrong, but I thought that only parents from Anglo Canadian schools can select English schools? If those from UK, US, ... can pick English schools, that would remove a huge stumbling block.

Did some quick checking via Google, and what I found requires attending a Canadian english school (based on law 101).

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#68

Post by philgo20 »

windsurfer wrote: post #28

Is anyone here looking for a potential employee from Ottawa? Already a Canadian and available for the whole summer ;)

@matchFWD is ;-)

send resume, links to code and why you think you'd be a valuable asset for a new startup at phil AT matchfwd.com

thxs @philgo20

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#69

Post by evanprodromou »

neilk wrote: post #49

The premise doesn't make sense to me. Open source is a business model, not a technology. How do you build a "hub" out of that? I think you are arguing that familiarity with the business model is transferable across organizations, but that seems dubious. At least so far, there has never been a "hub" based on an investing or management talent pool. It's always been based on the employee talent pool -- for the Bay Area,…

Hey. I grew up in SF, moved to Montreal in 2002. So, you know, we probably crossed around Iowa City or so.

There's a lot to unpack in your comment. Is there enough similarity between Open Source companies that they will benefit from being near other OSS companies? I think so, for a few reasons.

1. Local investors will have experience with Open Source (we've seen this here in Montreal; our big seed investor MSU has invested in 3 OSS companies).

2. Local service providers (accountants, lawyers, consultants) are aware of and can work with Open Source business models, licenses, etc.

3. A pool of business talent -- people who know how to commercialize Open Source.

4. A pool of Open-Source-sensitive technical talent. It's hard to make Open Source work from a technical level. Some people have the chops for it -- others don't. The ones who do a good job make it look easy; and then there's the hundreds of thousands of 1-person projects on sourceforge.net.

I think that making a successful Open Source company is as different from making a shrink-wrap software company as making a Web company is. It's a sufficiently different model that you have to have a much different team to pursue it.

Re: Can Montreal Become an Open Source Startup Hub?

#70

Post by gamble »

jleyank wrote: post #67
gamble wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My husband's company opened a (English-speaking) branch office in Montreal two years ago. Language is definitely an issue for working spouses. It is very difficult to find an English-only job in Montreal if you don't work in tech or finance. Plus, the insular Anglophone community that used to make it possible to function in Montreal without French doesn't exist anymore. You need to learn French. Thankfully, if you're…

I might be wrong, but I thought that only parents from Anglo Canadian schools can select English schools? If those from UK, US, ... can pick English schools, that would remove a huge stumbling block. Did some quick checking via Google, and what I found requires attending a Canadian english school (based on law 101).

You are right that it's much more difficult for immigrants. It is possible to send your kids to an English public school if you're on a temporary visa, but not as a permanent resident. If you can afford tuition, an alternative is to send them to an unsubsidized English-language private school while they learn French.

Either way, moving to Montreal requires that the whole family makes a commitment to learn French - kids included. It's not an effort that children generally appreciate until they're later in life. =)

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