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The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

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Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#51

Post by marshray »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

I believe what he did was wrong, but probably not "go to prison for a long time" kind of wrong. At the end of the day, he didn't kill or hurt anybody, or destroy property, or probably even intend to do those things.

Certainly he wasted a lot of expensive people's time and at a critical point in a software development project. You can bet they wanted to wring his little neck badly.

By the time of the trial 8.6 million copies of Half-Life 2 had been sold, its success seemingly unaffected by the leak of 4th October 2003.

But it's unclear how much money he really cost the company. This $250M figure is obviously not credible when they were spending $1M a month on development costs.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#52

Post by ars »

jcw wrote: post #2

I'm happy to see that, while he did something wrong, because he was honest and openly remorseful throughout, he ended up not going to prison. The cops even seemed cordial, they let him get breakfast and a smoke. I wonder how differently things would have played out if he lived in the US.

Things would have been exactly the same in the US.

The stories that get all the publicity are the bad ones which of course leads you to think that's all there is.

But by far most cases end up exactly like this one.

Judges LOVE honesty, and so do cops. If you are honest and open with them you get a far milder punishment than someone who won't talk. I've seen it in so many case reports.

Judges are trying to figure out what kind of person you are. If you are open and honest they figure you made a mistake, but are basically a good person and thus don't need much punishment.

On the other hand someone who won't talk is assumed to have a more negative mindset.

I don't mean to suggest that not talking is taken as evidence for guilt - guilt is established separately and is not based on your cooperation. But the punishment for that guilt varies depending on your behavior in court and to the cops.

A lot of the advice on the internet about not talking to cops etc is aimed at avoiding guilt. And it may work. But it utterly ignores the second half, which to me seems almost as important, and that is punishment.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#53

Post by elwin »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

It was indeed criminally and morally wrong. It does not follow that sending him to prison for a long time is the proper response, even if he acted like an annoying jerk to some "cool" people.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#54

Post by bluesnowmonkey »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #44
bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

It was criminal and morally wrong. But the law allows for intent as well. From the article, it seems that his acts were committed as a result of maximal fanboyism rather than any real intent to do harm. So, in this case, it's about whether the sentencing is punishment or deterrent. Sentencing as deterrent is only useful a small part of the time (if it was more effective, then the death penalty would be an excellent d…

Any toddler knows it's wrong to steal a candy bar. I'm pretty sure every teenager smart enough to do so knows it's wrong to hack into a company's network, download their corporate secrets and distribute them to the internet.

Deterrance is absolutely the point of punishment. What he did was a white-collar crime. There's a perception in society that you can get away with certain extremely harmful things, like hacking or financial crime or environmental pollution, because it's hard to pin down intent and the results are hard to measure.

* Mugging. Damage: $50. Punishment: 3 years in jail. * Hacking Valve. Damage: $250,000,000. Punishment: 2 years probation. * Oil spill. Damage: $10,000,000,000. Punishment: have to sit through Senate hearing. * Financial ponzi scheme. Damage: $18,000,000,000. Punishment: 150 years in jail.

Yeah, it worked out with Bernie Madoff, actually. Still it doesn't seem proportionate to his crimes.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#55

Post by moe »

tkahn6 wrote: post #28

I'm impressed by the shear amount of knowledge the kid had. Especially at the age that he did it.

I also found it hard to not sympathize with him after statements like this:

"My bot used the same vulnerability in the LSASS service that his did, except it didn't crash the host system, so I guess they thought I gave him the exploit code. Of course I denied this and told them that I never write such shoddy code."

He doesn't come across like a criminal mind to me.

Don't blame an 18yr old kid for naively crossing lines he shouldn't. Blame the million dollar company for not securing their assets against 18yr old kids.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#56

Post by moe »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #54
drivingmenuts wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was criminal and morally wrong. But the law allows for intent as well. From the article, it seems that his acts were committed as a result of maximal fanboyism rather than any real intent to do harm. So, in this case, it's about whether the sentencing is punishment or deterrent. Sentencing as deterrent is only useful a small part of the time (if it was more effective, then the death penalty would be an excellent d…

Any toddler knows it's wrong to steal a candy bar. I'm pretty sure every teenager smart enough to do so knows it's wrong to hack into a company's network, download their corporate secrets and distribute them to the internet. Deterrance is absolutely the point of punishment. What he did was a white-collar crime. There's a perception in society that you can get away with certain extremely harmful things, like hacking o…

Hacking Valve. Damage: $250,000,000

Bullshit.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#57

Post by chaosmachine »

I was in a similar position once, many years ago, in the early days of the web. I had managed to get parts of the source code to a popular online game (no real hacking here, they left a tarball in an open directory I stumbled upon), and being a foolish young kid, I decided to brag about my insider knowledge of unfinished features on a website. A few weeks later, the company contacted me with a job offer... they just needed my name and address to start sending me checks. Fortunately, I wasn't that dumb.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#58

Post by ramidarigaz »

moe wrote: post #56
bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any toddler knows it's wrong to steal a candy bar. I'm pretty sure every teenager smart enough to do so knows it's wrong to hack into a company's network, download their corporate secrets and distribute them to the internet. Deterrance is absolutely the point of punishment. What he did was a white-collar crime. There's a perception in society that you can get away with certain extremely harmful things, like hacking o…

Hacking Valve. Damage: $250,000,000 Bullshit.

There's no way they lost money because of the hacking. They probably made money from the publicity.

Edit: I'm agreeing with you haha.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#59

Post by bluesnowmonkey »

burgerbrain wrote: post #42
bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

So let me get this straight, because this wasn't "some evil corporation", but rather a corporation who "make cool games", you think that some kid deserves a "long time" in fucking PRISON? Are you not familiar with the American justice system at all? I have a hard time wishing American prison on murders and rapists, people who do actual tangible harm to people .

I was trying to draw a distinction between this and something like Wikileaks. There are acts which are illegal but might be done for the ultimate good of society. If Gembe hacked into a company's network in order to secure evidence of their involvement in some heinous thing like genocide, it would still be illegal, but he would have my sympathy. But Valve just makes games. It was a dick move.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#60

Post by burgerbrain »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #59
burgerbrain wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me get this straight, because this wasn't "some evil corporation", but rather a corporation who "make cool games", you think that some kid deserves a "long time" in fucking PRISON? Are you not familiar with the American justice system at all? I have a hard time wishing American prison on murders and rapists, people who do actual tangible harm to people .

I was trying to draw a distinction between this and something like Wikileaks. There are acts which are illegal but might be done for the ultimate good of society. If Gembe hacked into a company's network in order to secure evidence of their involvement in some heinous thing like genocide, it would still be illegal, but he would have my sympathy. But Valve just makes games. It was a dick move.

I don't care if it was illegal, or if it was a dick move. Prison time is hugely out of line for this sort of offense and perpetrator.
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