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UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

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Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#371

Post by chrisseaton »

dragonwriter wrote: post #364
hedora wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no clear path to replacing UAW. They somehow got in control of union representation for the entire UC system. The US is a closed shop country, so it is illegal for students to simply cancel their membership in UAW and join a graduate student workers union. I’m not familiar enough with labor law to know the exact proceedue, but presumably students would need to mount a state-wide campaign to vote UAW out (if i…

> There’s no clear path to replacing UAW. Sure there is; the rules for decertifying unions and replacing them are not mysterious. > They somehow got in control of union representation for the entire UC system. Because the grad students formed unions and voted to affiliate with UAW, even before their rights to do so were recognized. > I’m not familiar enough with labor law to know the exact proceedue, but presumably s…

> voted to affiliate with UAW

But why? They’ve got nothing to do with the car industry.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#372

Post by rovr138 »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #350
Symbiote wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children living with unrelated adult roommates, or without their own bedroom (shared with siblings until age 10), is considered a strong indicator of poverty. I expect a graduate student parent to be making significant material sacrifices to support a child (no big parties, no trip to Thailand in the summer) but they shouldn't be in poverty.

They are a student. As much as it sucks they have to support a child, this was a decision that they consciously made. We shouldn't have to throw around money to every grad student just because some small fraction of them are parents. If you want to talk about programs specifically for supporting parents working towards their education, I'm all ears. But that is orthogonal to the current discussion.

They are adults working.

Most grad 'students' work and should be paid as employees. They're not 'studying'. I really believe a grad student should be an employee and treated as such. They're doing the research which is directly tied to the university's ranking. The ranking and name of a university is tied to the applications they receive. They're the ones doing the grading and proctoring. They're not simply taking classes and graduating. They're writing papers and grants, meeting their deadlines for papers by not sleeping and then going to teach a session or grading all day. All while getting paid to work 'part time'.

Regarding being a parent, the alternative is singling them out, make the ones with children pass through hoops in order to receive extra financial support.

On a university, the funding will probably be limited. So now it's not only grad students that are parents but the grad students that are parents that did it early/qualified.

There's already a big discrepancy, even inside a single university, between how much each student earns based on their department/advisor/research.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#373

Post by barry-cotter »

chrisseaton wrote: post #360
hervature wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PhD in Europe is different than in the US. There's is very little industry-academia support in terms of working while doing your PhD. From Princeton's policies, particularly the last sentence: "Graduate study at Princeton, at both the doctoral and, in most cases, the master’s level, requires full-time commitment to study and research on the part of students. The Graduate School’s financial support structure, which ex…

> requires full-time commitment to study and research on the part of students How can they say this, and then also ask their graduate students to teach? They're contradicting themselves.

All things are true as long as they benefit the people in power in an institution. Contradictory things are simultaneously true. All justifications for the current system, which works well for the PTB are just obviously the case.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#374

Post by barry-cotter »

jogjayr wrote: post #317
caf wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like if you want to be a General, you are going to have to be a Private first. There is a progression in the sciences. That's not how the military works at all. A Private is an enlisted rank, and their career path typically tops out at a level like Warrant Officer. If you want to be a General, you're going to have to start as a Lieutenant (the lowest commissioned officer).

I think they got their analogy slightly wrong but it makes sense. If you want a career in research, a Bachelor's or Master's degree is like enlisting. You won't progress beyond a certain level. Whereas going to grad school for a PhD is like attending a military academy - which is the only path to becoming a general today. A military academy has the added benefit of a guaranteed officer job upon graduation. No such gu…

> Whereas going to grad school for a PhD is like attending a military academy - which is the only path to becoming a general today.

What proportion of officers in the US Armed Forces graduates from the military academies? A third? I very much doubt graduating from one is required to become a general. Being a great political operator is but it’s not like only military academy graduates can do that.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#375

Post by barry-cotter »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #94
pergadad wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands every PhD will be paid fairly decently. That's how it should be. Nor excuse for rich universities like those in UK & US to exploit those dreaming of s research career.

Just with some fast googling, I think they're paid in about the same range as US PhD's. Or am I mistaken?

US universities don’t offer half time PhD studentships and then expect full time work. This was common in Germany when I had grad student acquaintances ten years ago. I doubt things have changed.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#376

Post by blacklion »

To be honest, I read only ~75% of comments, but I'm very surprised that [almost?] everybody discuss postgrad's salaries and conflict with university and is it «free market» of employment as TAs and scuh/.

Why doesn't anybody discuss housing situation & regulations?! Why these students protest against university and not City's government?! Why is it strike and not revolt agains housing regulations!? Why is here no discussion about «free market» of housing?!

I'm not live in USA, but looks like there is A LOT of demand for new housing and offer is limited by totally out-of-market reasons! And everybody discuss salaries and their fairness, not new housing and fairness of regulations! For me, outsider, it is «obvious» that housing regulations, not university, are to blame and protest against!

Also, I'm shocked, than room mates are offered as viable solution! I was raised in USSR, where one of the main sins of government (in top-10 for sure) was failure to provide personal housing for everybody.

I was raised in shared apartments (multiple bedrooms, single kitchen, toilet and bathroom). Of course, room mates is theoretically better, because theoretically you could choose room mates, and in USSR it was impossible to choice so-tenants, as these rooms and apartments were distributed by officials without consulting with people. But anyway, it is mind-boggling for me, that it is suggested as good solution for adults peoples, who effectively work for one of the best education institution in richest country in the world, to live in shared apartments. Of course, it must be allowed, if friends want to live together, but it must be decision based on convenience, not as only solution to have ANY housing!

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#377

Post by [deleted] »

wahern wrote: post #336
kova12 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which just underlies the problem with unions: not only they are compulsory institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

Compulsory union membership has been illegal since the 1947 Taft-Hartey Act. Compulsory legal representation fees for public sector unions have been illegal since Janus v. AFSCME (2018). Just like in a democracy, not everybody's interests can be fully satisfied in a union. So what? That doesn't necessarily mean we'd all be better off with autocracy or without any government whatsoever, not even the people getting the…

[deleted]

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#378

Post by exhilaration »

JamesBarney wrote: post #366
thrwaway69 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Unions like democracy are a compromise. Though, I always wonder why do so many people here (despite not being in a tech union or majorly working in industries without them most likely) push for it so much? Can anyone give me their actual experience being in a union that's not in the tech industry?

The AMA has done an amazing job at representing the interests of doctors

But that's a lobbying organization - and yes, a very successful one at all levels of government. They're not involved in pay and contract negotiations at your local hospital.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#379

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

wahern wrote: post #336
kova12 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which just underlies the problem with unions: not only they are compulsory institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

Compulsory union membership has been illegal since the 1947 Taft-Hartey Act. Compulsory legal representation fees for public sector unions have been illegal since Janus v. AFSCME (2018). Just like in a democracy, not everybody's interests can be fully satisfied in a union. So what? That doesn't necessarily mean we'd all be better off with autocracy or without any government whatsoever, not even the people getting the…

Unions still have many monopolistic legal rights. For example, one obvious question is why UCSC students can’t form their own union and get their own contract; the answer is that it would be illegal, because if there’s a duly authorized union employers can’t collectively bargain with any other group.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#380

Post by saystupidthings »

toomim wrote: post #319
asdff wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grad students at UCSC didn't arbitrarily think the deal they struck isn't good enough anymore, they never thought it was good enough in the first place. 83% of UCSC grad students felt the minimums outlined in the agreement, which was a UC wide agreement and not between UCSC and the UCSC grad students by the way, were insufficient for the growing rents in Santa Cruz. This 13m number isn't arbitrary. In fact that $1400…

But at UCSC they do this every year . Here's news on the strike from 2018: https://news.ucsc.edu/2018/05/strike-updates.html Here's news on the strike from 2017: https://news.ucsc.edu/2017/01/strike-message.html There's reason to believe that no matter what deal was reached, they would just strike again next year, to try to get more money. How much is enough?

Because they didn't get enough money either year? Enough is enough to pay rent? That's enough.
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