Live data from Hacker News

No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

sfchronicle.com

81–90 of 236 posts

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of them don't even hold a driving license Maybe true in Milan, but not anywhere in the US. Driving is near imperative in all areas of the country, unfortunately even in big cities, meaning everyone who can get a license, does.

Is driving an imperative even in cities like NY and SF? Where would you even be driving to or from in cities like that? Where would you be parking? I wouldn’t attempt to drive in NY in a million years.

[deleted]

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#82

Chicago tried this decades ago with the State Street Mall project [1]. It turned out to be an overall flop, with stores seeing reduced traffic, and by 1993 it was gone and good riddance. As a pedestrian, I hated it when I worked downtown. Maybe they'll do something on Market Street that will work better, or perhaps it might be a better fit there than in Chicago, but I wish them luck, because they're going to need it.…

King St. in Toronto is a kind of hybrid project[0] where cars have local access, but must turn either right or left at a bunch of intersections. On-street parking is gone. It's been a resounding success specifically for local businesses, which is interesting (and not surprising to me, but opposite of what you say happened in Chicago). More comparable climate to Chicago too.

[0] https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/planning-development/...

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#83

I'm always wondering what about people with disabilities, older people with problems with walking, pregnant women, families with four kids, etc. Sometimes the public transport for such people is problematic and using taxi all the time is too expensive. Total banning cars makes a great space for the healthy ones, the rest is happily ignored. And this is sad. I like decreasing the number of cars, not forbidding them at…

>people with disabilities, older people with problems with walking, pregnant women

Are precisely the kinds of people less likely to be able to drive. Accessible and convenient public transit is a better option for them, provided of course that it's accessible and convenient throughout their journey - that means sidewalks, intersections, transit stops, building access, etc.

If families with 4 kids don't need a vehicle at all, it's a huge financial benefit for them. Here in Canada a mini-boat on wheels large enough to accommodate such a family is friggin' expensive. Cities tend to have free or very cheap tickets for kids, so if you can get away with doing commutes by transit and have a Corolla for weekend errands and groceries that you don't have to shove all 4 into, you win $1000s every year.

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#84
post #51

>His conclusion: When cities shut streets off to cars, people drive less. The myth of a “carmageddon”-style traffic jam is apparently overblown. This seems to completely ignore the fact that what actually has occured here is that the reduction of drivers is a negative for those drivers. Those drivers now either have to cycle or use public transport instead of their cars or have to move. That might seem positive to th…

If it inconveniences a lot fewer drivers than the number of cyclists and public transit users who benefit, then it's a clear-cut and uncontroversial net win, isn't it?

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#85
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Graz and I'm hard of hearing. Hearing aids make locating where some kinds of sounds come from difficult, so I miss a lot of acoustic cues that pedestrians use to navigate their way through busy places. I've been run down once by a bicyclist and once by a skateboarder while I was walking on mixed use pathways. The skateboarder took a harder fall than I did, still helped me up, and sincerely apologized. I fra…

I also live in Graz now and as much as it loves to advertise itself as a bike friendly city, outside of the inner city center and student quarters biking here is very dangerous due to poor infrastructure cyclists have to share with pedestrians, cars or trams and cyclists not respecting any rules (crossing on red lights, never hand signaling a turn or a stop, etc.). Compared to the Netherlands or Denmark, biking cultu…

You've reminded me that there's a five-way intersection next to Uni Graz. Some years ago they basically removed all traffic signals and most signs, basically ceding the whole area to priority for pedestrians. When I first came across it the apparent chaos was a little concerning but after walking through that place on more than one occasion I was surprised how well it worked. I've not actually been to that part of town in some time, so now I wonder if it's still like that.

I'm not sure that would work in many, much less every intersection but it really made me stop and question what sort of unrecognised assumptions I had about traffic safety. This stuff is important and I think there's way to many rules and practices that are in place because of assumptions that got made back in the dawn of time... it's likely that they're not correct now but it's even possible that they were never really correct. We need evidence based policies and not so-called common wisdom.

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#86
post #5
post #3

The linked article (1) says the redesign will have "sidewalk level bike lanes". If there's a way for local people to comment on this, please encourage these to be changed to in-between-road-and-sidewalk level. (Or road level with a continuous kerb in between). This makes it much, much easier for pedestrians not to accidentally wander into the lane. (2) 1 https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Car-free-Market-...…

As a Dutchie blunders like the one you mention are so stupifying... Takes you a ten minute visit to NL to figure out why you need to separate modalities consistently, yet even as close as Germany and France cities are designed so obviously by people who never ever bike.

IMO: you don’t to see that, you just need to have ever driven a car with other cars on the road to understand why vehicles going different speeds shouldn’t share the same lanes.

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#87
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. We have pavement level cycle tracks in the part of East London I live in - I tend to stick to the roads since if if I'm doing 16-18MPH and a pedestrian wanders into the cycleway, it gets tricky. I absolutely do not blame the pedestrians - its all too easy to do.

From the perspective of a pedestrian this always feels like a really bad pattern. The cyclists are going full speed past pedestrians who might only be a foot or so from them because, after all, they're in a marked bike lane. Meanwhile pedestrians are walking on a sidewalk, maybe not paying much attention, and probably not expecting something to slam into them if they moved over a bit or changed their direction at a c…

In Japan however people seem to cycle at a more casaual pace.

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#88
post #24
post #20

Studies? Just check out how we do this in the Netherlands. It works great here in most bigger cities.

You live in a flat country, were cities are quite densely populated and you don't have to travel a lot. Mine is not.

E-bikes! They're amazing. Bicycle with small assist engine.

You start pedaling, and the bike engine helps you, so going up hills is easy.

Riding one feels like you have super-strength.

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#89
Am I the only one disappointed that the author was NOT referring to the PC game Carmageddon in the title.

Expected summary: "Well, we were pleasantly surprised that shutting down the streets didn't lead to a rage-induced, car-killing-spree murder rampage."

Re: No ‘carmageddon’ on auto-free Market Street: study shows bikes and buses benefit

#90
post #51

>His conclusion: When cities shut streets off to cars, people drive less. The myth of a “carmageddon”-style traffic jam is apparently overblown. This seems to completely ignore the fact that what actually has occured here is that the reduction of drivers is a negative for those drivers. Those drivers now either have to cycle or use public transport instead of their cars or have to move. That might seem positive to th…

Well, and the externalities of the driver's carbon emissions are a massive negative impact on all of us. In a city as dense as San Francisco, transit, walking, or biking can easily cover most people's transportation needs. The more we build safe and effective infrastructure for those modes, the more people will use them. And that will be good - in the end - for the remaining few who do absolutely need to drive (thoug…

I'm not advocating for designing life around increasing car ownership. I'm pointing out that re-designing existing systems to disadvantage a specific group of commuters is more than a little problematic. Let's put it this way - how would you feel if we shut down your nearest train station and used the money saved to give everyone a tax break.

We can also decrease carbon emissions by just shutting down every power station in China, but targetting a single group of people to take the vast majority of the cost of fixing climate change is not reasonable.

Post reply on HN