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Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

jarednelsen.dev

531–538 of 538 posts

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But while they are getting guidance and mentorship, they are not being a productive member of the team, taking time away from experienced developers and as soon as they level up they will change companies and the next company didn’t have to invest training time. I know everyone has to start somewhere but from the company’s perspective, hiring a junior developer doesn’t make sense.

Another perspective to consider as well: while you are spending the time investing into and training people who needs the training and investment, your competitors are throwing money luring away the ones you have already trained, and leaving you in the dust in terms of velocity. Turtles all the way down. Once a game shifts into zero-sum, it's not gonna stop getting played until it collapses. Normally, I would say to…

>while you are spending the time investing into and training people who needs the training and investment, your competitors are throwing money luring away the ones you have already trained

That is a zero-sum attitude that does not hold up when a company does other things well. If you are training your employees, you are likely to be doing the other things that help retain employees (https://www.bayshorestaffing.com/images/uploads/Blog_Image.j...). And if you are focusing on and actually delivering all ten of those benefits, employees are extremely unlikely to be jumping ship unless they are either a poor employee or have poor character (which you don’t want anyhow), or the competition is paying not only well above market rate, but well above your rates. Which means that they are now at a strategic disadvantage because an inordinate amount of funding needs to be diverted to payroll - much more so than in a company like yours.

Any company can make an end run around zero-sum thinking by fully and honestly employing those ten benefits. Employees can and will rise to the occasion, bringing a competitive advantage to your company that is well in excess to their numbers.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is a way to filter the amount of FAANG applicants! It is as follows: Offer ridiculously low pay, such that only basic expenses could be paid for, like basic housing... Then, see who shows up. Whoever shows up... really wants a job. You don't hire them yet. You implement your own corporate bootcamp, where you give then coding assignments. These start easy, but progress, over a number of weeks, to those that…

Sorry, this won't work. 1. Too arduous for the FAANG company 2. If the end result is $250k/year salary, then absolutely insane amount of people will stick it until the end. I know I do. Heck, I will live at FAANG office 24/7/365 if I need to, and I know a lot of people will do it. See the current state of Leetcode forum and reddit CS career questions to get the feel of the type A people who flock there. It is go big…

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Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#533
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who’s done a lot of hiring, I often glance at an online portfolio briefly, but I find it to be a low-quality signal for whether I will want to hire the person, and even for the technical ability. If I don’t know you, I can’t tell from your online portfolio whether you’re the sole author and/or how much you’ve contributed to a project. I can’t easily tell if you get a lot of your code from StackOverflow,…

> I’d find your approach to hiring to be a warning about how the culture operates there. Hahaha, well I can't stop you from making bad assumptions. When I say I believe that online portfolios are a low quality signal, I am speaking from experience. I have seen first-hand people that look amazing on paper who were bad hires, and also people who didn't invest in their online presence but were rock stars. I'd encourage…

Hi dahart, I'd just like to say thanks for your, from my perspective, insightful thoughts about online github stuff and hiring and interviewing.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#534
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you miss is that your assumptions of "things everybody knows" are not necessarily correct. Many common examples of interview riddles that are defended as "it's just Fermi Estimation!" end up "memorise, interview, forget" method for many people, because there's close to total disconnect between assumed background knowledge and actual background knowledge (a question I encountered recently asked for estimate…

"your assumptions of "things everybody knows"" The fact that not everyone knows the same things is the whole point! And if you don't have any knowledge that is related to the interviewer's, then how are they going to evaluate you using any method? But sure, there are specific, inflexible requirements. You have to know false precision is BS, and I have no sympathy for people who have a problem with that. You have to i…

Note that I mentioned asking interviewee for estimates related to the job - that is an understandable assumption, as the question touches on knowledge and experience that is a priori known to be relevant.

OTOH, especially if you're interviewing internationally, using "common knowledge" instead of job/technology area related one? Pretty much a fail, helped along with books dedicated to memorising bullshit questions.

Another issue is that the typical "fermi problem" is stated in absolute, precision way. Ask "how would you estimate X" and you'd probably get good answers even from people who don't memorize interview gotchas.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mentioned that you've been writing shipping software for over thirty years. To what extent do you think ageism is the issue here?

Huge, but I have made it a point to reduce my bellyaching about it. A lot of the reason that I stopped looking for work, was because, almost instantly upon finding out that I am afflicted with eld , the microaggressions and veiled insults begin. It's kind of amazing. People contact me, telling me how awesome my résumé is, then quickly backtrack, as soon as they find out it comes with grey hair. I guess the industry i…

That's frustrating and unfortunately unsurprising.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#536
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"your assumptions of "things everybody knows"" The fact that not everyone knows the same things is the whole point! And if you don't have any knowledge that is related to the interviewer's, then how are they going to evaluate you using any method? But sure, there are specific, inflexible requirements. You have to know false precision is BS, and I have no sympathy for people who have a problem with that. You have to i…

Note that I mentioned asking interviewee for estimates related to the job - that is an understandable assumption, as the question touches on knowledge and experience that is a priori known to be relevant. OTOH, especially if you're interviewing internationally, using "common knowledge" instead of job/technology area related one? Pretty much a fail, helped along with books dedicated to memorising bullshit questions. A…

I have no idea how it may in practice be done badly, because I've never encountered it personally.

But I suspect the reason people widely hate the concept is because schooling pounds into you that there is only one way to get the right answer, and it must be exact.

And so when people complain about being tested on trivia, what they really mean is "I want to be tested on trivia that I know". I would actually like to be evaluated based on something other than knowing trivia, but of course I would not like to take a stupidly constructed test.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#537
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it would be illegal for me to kick a nazi out of my store because they are being a nazi Here in Sweden, yes. The law is very clear that you can not deny service because you disagree with someones political, religious, or world views. Government nondiscrimination is a US technicality of the first amendment. European Convention on Human Rights is not limiting to government behavior. Everyone has to follow it.

Then Sweden has a unique interpretation of the ECHR. In most EU nations, that isn't the case (nor does it seem to actually be the case in Sweden, given that Sweden's anti discrimination law doesn't protect arbitrary views). I think you should speak with a lawyer, because you're not correct.

In 2016 the Swedish national cabinet issued a report on the status of the anti-discrimination law (SOU 2016:87). It cites the EU courts cases C-399/11, Melloni and C‑617/10, Åklagaren mot Åkerberg Fransson, and the conclusion that political discrimination is against the human rights convention.

The report also note that current law does not protect children that get discriminated based on their parents political activity, which the FN convention of children rights says they should be protected against.

The report goes on to basically say that the EU convention of human rights extends the Swedish anti-discrimination law to include, among other things, political and other world views, class, and social status. The report then goes on that courts must already follow those extensions.

There were also a specific case a couple years ago where a politician was kicked out of a restaurants based on his political affiliation. A Judge commented on that case noted that while the Swedish anti-discrimination does not make it illegal, there is a case to be made under the EU human rights declaration.

So there. The government report, and a judge, both saying the same conclusion.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the "coding" is rarely the issue. For most software engineering roles you generally want someone who can: understand problems, figure out possible solutions, decide on which is best, communicate why it is best and (importantly) be flexible when the company wants you to do some other solution. Meet all those requirements and you are a useful member at most companies. I think a general chat about a broad prob…

> than whiteboarding some memorized algorithm. This is not how it works! There are over 1000 problems on leetcode. Sure, many of them are solved using the same techniques but there is usually a twist and you often need to combine multiple approaches or come up with something new (to you). And then there is usually a very problem-specific way in which the problem can be solved 10 or 50 times faster. Often these insigh…

I don't intend to say that leetcode/competitive programming is easy, far from it. It is too focused on coding vs. the broader skillset that successful web devs have: working in teams, business objectives, scaling issues, etc. I think even the baseline expectations (lets say remembering how to implement a specific type of sort) are often at odds with how anyone does things in the real world - a few devs are implementing these things by hand for certain reasons but not MOST devs, not even at most FAANG jobs. So why is everyone using that knowledge as a filter?

The problem with leetcoding in interviews is that it is easily measurable but not an important metric. Focusing on someone's aptitude at skills they never use at their job means good developers get tossed aside or are forced to waste energy jumping through hoops needlessly.

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