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Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

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Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#351

Post by GreenJelloShot »

lsiebert wrote: post #242
GreenJelloShot wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If sharing wealth leads to greater wealth, then why is it necessary to try to take wealth (by force)? Why don't people willingly give up their wealth so that they can make more? If it is possible to make more wealth by giving up some, why not let people choose whether or not they will share? If you theory holds true, then people who share will get richer and the people who don't share will get poorer and the problem…

People don't always make the rational choice for long term benefits when there are short term gains to be had. Individuals, thanks to bounded rationality, tend to seek satisfactory solutions, not optimal ones. It takes coordinated effort to find optimal solutions. Another way to think of it is, that by benefiting from public goods (roads, law enforcement, health regulations) already in existence you and your family h…

> People don't always make the rational choice for long term benefits when there are short term gains to be had. Individuals, thanks to bounded rationality, tend to seek satisfactory solutions, not optimal ones. It takes coordinated effort to find optimal solutions.

Translation: People are stupid and need to be forced to do the right thing. (Where the "right thing" is defined by the current people in charge.)

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#352

Post by WalterBright »

AstralStorm wrote: post #346
WalterBright wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can make more. Build a 10 story building and you've got 10x the floor space. People do that all the time in places were land is in short supply. Monopoly is a child's game that has no connection with how markets actually work.

How many farms can you stack?

People have started building vertical farms with hydroponics. Some say it's the future.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#353

Post by WalterBright »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #337
WalterBright wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can make more. Build a 10 story building and you've got 10x the floor space. People do that all the time in places were land is in short supply. Monopoly is a child's game that has no connection with how markets actually work.

And how often can you repeat this until you have effectively solved the optimum, and the situation devolves into zero-sum anyway? Are we growing the pie, or are we just rediscovering how big the pie is by optimizing better? >Monopoly is a child's game that has no connection with how markets actually work. Those aren't mutually exclusive. As far as I understand, the idea of Monopoly isn't to show how markets work. Its…

> having problems

Most countries hurt because investors avoid them.

> buying up

Meaning tons of money and investment is flowing into the country.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#354

Post by WalterBright »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #337
WalterBright wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can make more. Build a 10 story building and you've got 10x the floor space. People do that all the time in places were land is in short supply. Monopoly is a child's game that has no connection with how markets actually work.

And how often can you repeat this until you have effectively solved the optimum, and the situation devolves into zero-sum anyway? Are we growing the pie, or are we just rediscovering how big the pie is by optimizing better? >Monopoly is a child's game that has no connection with how markets actually work. Those aren't mutually exclusive. As far as I understand, the idea of Monopoly isn't to show how markets work. Its…

> And how often can you repeat this

No limit has been found, and certainly there's none in sight. Previous things running out:

1. rand out of wood for fuel. Now we use other fuels.

2. ran out of whales for whale oil. Now using other fuels.

3. Germany ran out of oil in WW2. They switched to alcohol and were developing other synthetic fuels.

4. The US ran out of rubber in WW2, developed synthetic rubber.

5. Ran out of farmland. Now use much more productive farming techniques. Vertical hydroponic farms are an emerging technology.

And so on. Interestingly, the countries that fail to adapt to change are socialist ones. The free market countries adapt.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#355

Post by WalterBright »

dTal wrote: post #339
WalterBright wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can make more. Build a 10 story building and you've got 10x the floor space. People do that all the time in places were land is in short supply. Monopoly is a child's game that has no connection with how markets actually work.

In addition to my excellent sibling's note that this is a very finite solution to a boundless problem, land has a lot more uses than living space. Let's see a 10 story runway.

> this is a very finite solution to a boundless problem

Are you seriously concerned about running out of places to put a 10 story building? People will just start making 20 story buildings.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#356

Post by big_chungus »

brnt wrote: post #347
big_chungus wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well sure, stealing from others is a violation of the NAP. That's part of the "keeping the peace" duty I mentioned in my above position that the state should keep the peace, uphold property rights, and enforce contracts.

What's the NAP? In any case, we rely on the state to uphold those rights, and since we cannot expect the state to work for free, we accept a percentage is needed for the maintenance of those right.

Sorry, non-aggression principle. Basically, no using force against someone else until he does it first. You're right that we do have to have some government to uphold basic duties. However, those duties are pure public goods and should be billed as such. Sum the total expenditures each year, divide by the number of adult citizens, and directly bill each citizen that amount.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#357

Post by GreenJelloShot »

rorykoehler wrote: post #321
GreenJelloShot wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If sharing wealth leads to greater wealth, then why is it necessary to try to take wealth (by force)? Why don't people willingly give up their wealth so that they can make more? If it is possible to make more wealth by giving up some, why not let people choose whether or not they will share? If you theory holds true, then people who share will get richer and the people who don't share will get poorer and the problem…

Delayed gratification is one of many reasons. If exercise leads to greater health, then why is it necessary to try to encourage people exercise? Why don't people willingly exercise so that they can be healthy?

There is a difference between "encouraging" and "forcing".

Should we force people to exercise?

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#358

Post by rorykoehler »

GreenJelloShot wrote: post #357
rorykoehler wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delayed gratification is one of many reasons. If exercise leads to greater health, then why is it necessary to try to encourage people exercise? Why don't people willingly exercise so that they can be healthy?

There is a difference between "encouraging" and "forcing". Should we force people to exercise?

No but we should force people to pay taxes due to the same underlying human trait. If you don't exercise you hurt mostly yourself. If you don't pay taxes you are a burden on society.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#359

Post by robomartin »

simion314 wrote: post #320
robomartin wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are fair questions and I don't have real answers, just opinion based on having a good deal of exposure to other cultures and systems. I believe one of the misconceptions in the US is that free university in other countries means anyone gets in. That is simply not the case. A very simple example I have of this is the daughter of one of our close friends who wants to study medicine in Spain. She has been preparin…

I agree that you need to find a way to bring the costs down, I think that a lot of money are wasted, For example in Mathematics or computer science you don't need super expensive equipment, you need good professors that are good at teaching. Some universities have buildings with cheap bedrooms for students, places with cheap but good cooked food. What I think it happened in US is the capitalistic thing where you rais…

It actually is precisely opposite to capitalism.

In the US the government guarantees student loans. This means the universities have exactly zero risk. When someone has no risk of losing money because they government will guarantee payment, they will charge and lend any amount to anyone. You can't lose.

What would happen if the government got out of student loans and did not guarantee them?

Universities would experience significantly more risk than before. And, in fact, there is no way they could charge the exorbitant amounts they charge today. They would be forced to reduce costs in order to be able to reduce tuition and, as a result, reduce the risk they undertake.

I know a kid who is going for a Masters in Mechanical Engineering and will graduate with a debt of over $300K. He was a member of the robotics team I mentor. I strongly suggested it was a terrible idea to start life with an ME degree and that much debt. It amounts to economic slavery. Well, the university, didn't care because the government guarantees the loan. So, they lured the kid in by promising all kinds of wonderful things. Sadly, in a couple of years this person is going to start to understand why I advised against taking that path.

From my perspective, the largest problem with regards to the cost of education in the US is that government disrupts free market forces. All they have to do is stop and the cost of education in the US will drop over time. Nobody in their right mind would loan $300K to an 18 year old without market distorting forces such as a 100% government guarantee.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#360

Post by brnt »

big_chungus wrote: post #356
brnt wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the NAP? In any case, we rely on the state to uphold those rights, and since we cannot expect the state to work for free, we accept a percentage is needed for the maintenance of those right.

Sorry, non-aggression principle. Basically, no using force against someone else until he does it first. You're right that we do have to have some government to uphold basic duties. However, those duties are pure public goods and should be billed as such. Sum the total expenditures each year, divide by the number of adult citizens, and directly bill each citizen that amount.

I think it should be normalized to the amount of wealth rather than pax, because a larger pile of wealth relies more on this authority to maintain it. I'd even think perhaps supralinearly so.
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