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Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

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211–220 of 374 posts

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't you have already in USA public schools,roads, parks, firemen, police Sure. That has nothing to do with Socialism. There's nothing wrong with paying reasonable taxes to build and support an infrastructure that is of benefit to all involved. The healthcare problem in the US is grotesquely misunderstood. It has NOTHING to do with insurance (private and otherwise) and everything to do with stuff politicians have…

1 why not get the top say 10000 smartest people that want to study medicine and offer them free education. If some rich person is not in the top he can pay. Why would you prefer to lose some smart but poor people. I understand that the system is super complex and if you clean it up you would probably don't need to pay more insurance or taxes though I seen there is a lot of FUD that an European like system would cost…

> why not get the top say 10000 smartest people that want to study medicine and offer them free education

You forget to take into account racial / cultural / religious / gender "equality" concern which prevent you to get a 100% merit based system.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#212
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is zero sum, because no intentional action can increase wealth. Only the gradual, chance-based progression of new money into the game. In contrast, if I take out a loan and build a successful business, my intentional actions (successful business) lead to greater money supply than if I had failed at business. Does that make sense, or am I missing something? I'll admit, the creation of new wealth/money is very myste…

> my intentional actions (successful business) Your intentional action is to start a business. Whether or not it will be a successful business and actually "generate wealth" is to a large part dependant an chance. Also, honestly, "It's not a zero-sum game" is beginning to sound like a religious mantra. Of course you can define "wealth" however your want and for the right definitions, you can certainly pull ever more…

The phrase “zero sum game”, taken as referring to the game theory thing, “zero sum games”, isn’t about wealth, but about utility (though sometimes utility could be modeled as just being wealth).

To say that something isn’t zero sum in this sense is a rather weak statement. If any combination of actions by people result in at least one person being worse off and no one else being better off, or in at least one person being better off and no one else being worse off, than some other combination of choices, that is sufficient to conclude that it isn’t zero sum. (This isn’t a necessary condition, only a sufficient one. But a Pareto difference (terminology?) implies a difference in the sum of utilities (assuming that there is a sensible way to add the utilities) without assuming a particular way to add utilities between persons, so I think it is easier to justify conceptually.)

That many things involving multiple people are not zero sum, in this sense, is obvious. (Punching a stranger in the face for no reason decreases the utility of the stranger without increasing one’s own. Well, for most people anyway?) It doesn’t imply that there are no limits to how good outcomes can be.

That a given thing is not zero sum is often something that would be sufficiently trivial as to not be worth saying, except that people talk about the thing as if it is zero sum.

If things were constrained to be on the Pareto frontier, then, while possibly still not zero sum, there would I think be less reason to point out that things aren’t zero sum even if they weren’t.

Pointing out that things aren’t zero sum is often, I think, effectively a call to take into account whether options would move closer to or further from the Pareto frontier, and not just pretend that things are always on the Pareto frontier and try to move along the Pareto frontier.

Now, if, within a certain context, the maximum distance it is possible to be from the Pareto frontier is negligible, then in those cases exclaiming “care more about the distance to the Pareto frontier!” wouldn’t seem to make much sense, and perhaps even sometimes justice requires putting more emphasis on where on the frontier we are closest to than how close we are to it, even if it means non-negligible difference in closeness to the frontier.

But, generally speaking, Pareto improvements are good and important, and forbidding people from taking actions that result in global Pareto improvements (I don’t just mean “if you only consider these people, then among these people it is a Pareto improvement”, but rather things that are Pareto improvements when considering everyone’s interests) is usually bad.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#213
post #39
post #10

Monopoly teaches people a view of economics being a zero-sum game and too many people learn the wrong lessons from it. Real life isn't a zero-sum game.

Once we hit the limits of eternal growth (if not by CO2, then by something else) it becomes one.

I'm sure those limits exist, but who's to say we'll ever hit those limits on human timescales?

right now, global warming is an existential threat that sets an upper bound on how much energy we can responsibly use. but if we can develop carbon-neutral means of harnessing energy at scale, we can use much more. if we can develop viable space travel, we can gain access to more material resources than exist on Earth. any one of the "next steps" along the exponential curve can fail, but I wouldn't assume we will hit a hard ceiling anytime soon.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#214
post #10

Monopoly teaches people a view of economics being a zero-sum game and too many people learn the wrong lessons from it. Real life isn't a zero-sum game.

I'd argue that in terms of land/housing market, in an established, multi-centuries contiguous (ie not disrupted by revolution, nationalization, large redistribution) urbanized area it becomes a zero-sum game and hence all the problems that entails.

IMO this is more or less the inevitable result of long surviving land ownership rights. You can see this in the correlation between home ownership rates and when was the last time land was nationalized/redistributed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

What do the top 10 countries have in common: they were communist dictatorships in the previous century were all land was taken and managed by the state.

What do the bottom 10 countries have in common: very long standing property rights with no redistribution in the last few centuries.

Not saying that what we need is nationalization/revolution but simply pointing out statistics and trends which may help inform people in order to counter their effects.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#215

How else should land be distributed if not via free market capitalism? Land is a scarce resource that people want. Either some person/corporation owns it or the government does. Its easy to see models where the government owns all the property as this exists in many places around the world such as Nigeria, China, and North Korea.

The best policy is a balance between total government control and total private control. An individual can own land, but the government can tax it, or allow easements, etc. Governments can own land and allow individuals on it. So it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Completely agree. It's frustrating, because with words like "capitalism" and "socialism", why use words at all? Nobody means the same thing And there's the reason why, in my original post at the beginning of this sub-thread, I used neither of those terms, in order to communicate more precisely. Centrally planned economies are inferior to freer economies, whether the top-down controls are imposed by democracy or aut…

There is a bit of a puzzle because many large corporations do pretty well with hierarchical planning and competition involves lots of duplicate effort. The markets also seem to encourage centralization for economy of scale? (Consider big tech, the airline industry, and index funds.)

I often wonder if there could be a feasible system by which things inside a large company could be run by a market-like thing, and whether that could end up using work more efficiently.

I hear about some part of a company requesting another part do some market research on some topic, and then just entirely disregard the results, when the market research department could have used that effort and time and money to do some other more useful market research that would have actually been used, and I wonder whether there could be some way to make sure that the requests to another department that something be done, have appropriate costs in some sense.

If one was better off by not requiring some other department do some work that doesn’t actually get used than if one does produce such a requirement for them, then presumably one would try to be less likely to produce such requirements, which seems desirable.

Is there a realistic feasible way to do this? I don’t know.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#217
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the story of the lucky coin: > If 1024 fair coins are each tossed 10 times, chances are good (> 63%) that at least one will come up heads 10 times in a row; and that coin will be proud to explain how its skill, faith, guts & determination made its achievement possible, and how that combo can work for you too. https://twitter.com/bayesiangirl/status/1214753289528434688?...

This is overly black and white thinking. “Because luck is involved, it’s only luck that matters.” When in reality, it’s luck and effort that matter. You can’t control the luck part, but you can control the effort part. It's similar to health - a great deal of how healthy you are has to do with luck (e.g. genetics). If someone said "the health game is rigged so there is no use in trying to be healthy" we'd think they…

> Because luck is involved, it’s only luck that matters.

I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion from the story, it's setting up a situation that is pure luck, and asserting that people will take credit for their luck. It's not saying that everything in the real world is actually luck.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Henry George was more or less opposed to our current conception of capitalism. He believed all land and narual resources should be held in common. He stated that a person should be entitled to the product of their personal labor and that was about it. But being a practical man he realized the horse was well out of the barn on private ownership of land and felt that a land value tax was essentially the next best thing…

I feel that is an overzealous interpretation. The whole crux of his work was that rent was unlike capital and labor and very subject to exploitation. He very much believed in markets and accumulation of capital. You can collectively own natural resources and still have a vibrant free trade economy.

Yup, never said he was opposed to markets nor accumulation of capital. But capitalism as we know it is hugely influenced by our current system of private property. Georgeism would have many similarities to our present form of capitalism but it would also look very different.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't you have already in USA public schools,roads, parks, firemen, police Sure. That has nothing to do with Socialism. There's nothing wrong with paying reasonable taxes to build and support an infrastructure that is of benefit to all involved. The healthcare problem in the US is grotesquely misunderstood. It has NOTHING to do with insurance (private and otherwise) and everything to do with stuff politicians have…

1 why not get the top say 10000 smartest people that want to study medicine and offer them free education. If some rich person is not in the top he can pay. Why would you prefer to lose some smart but poor people. I understand that the system is super complex and if you clean it up you would probably don't need to pay more insurance or taxes though I seen there is a lot of FUD that an European like system would cost…

These are fair questions and I don't have real answers, just opinion based on having a good deal of exposure to other cultures and systems.

I believe one of the misconceptions in the US is that free university in other countries means anyone gets in. That is simply not the case. A very simple example I have of this is the daughter of one of our close friends who wants to study medicine in Spain. She has been preparing for a full year to take entrance exams in order to be accepted into the university. Her parents are paying for her preparation to pass these exams. Even if preparation was free, the acceptance rate will be based on how many seats are available and some weighing of results.

This means that only a certain type of student (notice I did not say class) will have access to university education, even if it is free. I get the sense some Americans think that making university free means everyone has an equal probability of obtaining a PhD. This is a fantasy. Universities can only accept a certain number of students per year and they have to filter from the total candidate population in order to reduce it down to what they are able to handle.

It is hard to argue against the potential value of free education except to point out that, at a first level, if unworthy students are accepted at the exclusion of good students we would be wasting money and valuable resources. If we are going to give someone the gift of a valuable education they have to demonstrate they are ready for it and that the probability of success is reasonable.

This, in the US, would setup yet another inequality problem. It is easy to see that kids from more challenging environments are not going to do well if they have to pass tests in order to enter Harvard or MIT when it is free. Do you exclude really good students to accept those who are almost guaranteed to fail? Why is it OK to discriminate against kids who are excellent students? Why is it not OK to tell less capable students to spend a year or two at an (also free) preparatory college and then take the entrance exam again. In other words, don't degrade standards for some misplaced social ideology. If we want to graduate excellent doctors, let's do exactly that through a process that ensures it.

And then there's the problem of how to pay for all of that. Universities and colleges in the US currently exist under a system where students are paying anywhere from, say, $20K to $60K per year --if not more-- for their education. That means that, as a business, as an organization, their financial model is entirely based on the various revenue generators available to them, one of which is tuition. This financial model cannot be supported if tuition disappears. There is no way we can pay for that structure through taxation, even if we take all the money from all the billionaires in the nations (which is another massive lie these politicians are telling).

To this point, one of the other things Amercian voters without exposure to other parts of the worlds don't understand is that universities in other nations are not as rich as those in the US. Professors don't get paid nearly as much in free-education nations as they do in the US. I mean, in the US salaries in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year --even millions-- are a very real occurrence.

https://thebestschools.org/magazine/highest-paid-college-pro...

Outliers? Sure, but the reality of the matter is that free-university professors, in the US or elsewhere, simply can't make as much. The equation very quickly becomes mathematically unsustainable. However, it does not end there, there's staff and an organization behind each professor and class and those have budgets too. Simple put, if less money comes in you have to either close down or spend less.

As you noted, things are far more complex than they always seem on the surface. We can't have free education for all without addressing costs. There is no way we are going to pay a professor hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions if taxpayers are paying the bill and everything is free. At some point things have to be fair and reasonable.

Simple example, my son is at a university studying robotics. They have a two million dollar humanoid robot in one of the labs. They also have equipment and other robots costing many, many millions of dollars. These costs have to be paid somehow and by someone. My guess is that, today, that's a combination of tuition and donations. If we make tuition free, the need for cash can only be reduced by lowering professor salaries, reducing the size and breath of the organization and controlling the other costs (no million dollar humanoid). This is a reality at universities all over the world, they can't afford to be government-funded and have the same kinds of extravagant things we often see at universities in the US.

Can it be done? Sure, of course. Be we should not lie about how we would do it, and this should include a conversation about how our universities would change, how salaries would change and how access to technology and resources would change.

Yet another level of detail: What does "free" mean. In Europe and Latin America you might have free university but the cost of books and the cost of living somewhere and all of your personal costs are still yours. In the US, unlike in other parts of the world, kids leave their parents home and go to university all over the nation. In other countries is is very common for kids to go to local universities and stay home. Well, if our universities are free, who is going to pay for a kid from Las Vegas to travel to Boston and live there while attending free Harvard? That is still a significant amount of money. And that should not be a part of "free".

All of this means that, even if we make university tuition free you are going to have to filter kids based on academic performance --creating a social inequality battle-- and you are not going to pay for them living at some far away city at all. Again, things are always far more complex than they might seem on first inspection.

I don't know what the solutions might be. My gut feeling is that, in the US, the first step is to get government out of the business of financing university education. That will force universities to compete, control costs and become more efficient (financially speaking). If we do that, tuition will come down and might become very affordable. This could resolve the problem to a satisfactory level as a first experiment. Allow a natural reduction of cost through competition. Ten years later, come back and consider the idea of funding the more efficient versions of our universities to cover, say, half of the tuition. Another ten years and we cover it all and university is free. I would much prefer to see a gradual, logical and careful process towards better and cheaper education than some mathematically impossible attempt that is far more likely to cause a disaster than to fix anything.

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