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Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

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Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#131
"Georgism" is actually a really great idea but the name is terrible. I remember I tried to discuss it with someone once and they chuckled when I said the word "Georgism". They couldn't actually listen to my argument.

I think names are very important. For example, I find it ingenious that the country "French Guyana" has the word "French" in it and that there is another country in South America already called "Guyana"; it's probably a key reason why "French Guyana" is still part of France; they literally have no identity without France; they'd have to invent and popularize a new word first and that's very difficult to do.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#132
post #110
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Park Place you have to land on it first. Not necessarily. The games rules include an auction that is frequently removed in house rules. What's supposed to happen is if the player who lands on the space (Player A) doesn't buy it from the bank, the property is auctioned to all players. Maybe no one owns Boardwalk yet, and Player A doesn't want to try and get the Park Place/Boardwalk monopoly. Or maybe Boardwalk is own…

You can calculate the game-theoretic value of all of the properties (I'm a little surprised that no one seems to have actually done this AFAICT -- maybe a project for next weekend). At that point the game reduces to pure luck: players who land on properties whose list price is less than their game-theoretic value will buy those properties and gain a (small) edge. The auction clearing price for rational players will b…

I'd be interested in how you calculate it. Sounds like a great project. I've seen others that point out due to how the board is laid out which properties are most likely to be landed on, but don't think I've seen theoretical value based on rents.

An even better calculation would be how much it's worth to each player based on what they already have as well!

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#133
post #110
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Park Place you have to land on it first. Not necessarily. The games rules include an auction that is frequently removed in house rules. What's supposed to happen is if the player who lands on the space (Player A) doesn't buy it from the bank, the property is auctioned to all players. Maybe no one owns Boardwalk yet, and Player A doesn't want to try and get the Park Place/Boardwalk monopoly. Or maybe Boardwalk is own…

You can calculate the game-theoretic value of all of the properties (I'm a little surprised that no one seems to have actually done this AFAICT -- maybe a project for next weekend). At that point the game reduces to pure luck: players who land on properties whose list price is less than their game-theoretic value will buy those properties and gain a (small) edge. The auction clearing price for rational players will b…

It's not just property values/landing percents. If you can get a "low value" monopoly more quickly through the auction, because combined players happened to land on all the orange spaces first time around the board but they're all "rationale" and "know" that orange is low-value (I don't know if it is, just an example), then that opens up an opportunity for you to swoop in.

That might not happen every game but it is advantageous to get a monopoly sooner rather than later. Like I said earlier you can also factor in how much money your opponents have when deciding whether to go to auction or pay list price. If everyone is cash poor that opens up opportunities for you to get deeds for low cost, increasing the properties future rate of return.

The randomness in the game means you can't just pick one optimal strategy and apply it to every game and every opponent. And if your opponents change strategy (or your opponents change), you need to adapt your strategy to accommodate for that as well.

edit: As far as the math goes, here's one such article that goes over it: https://ideas.ted.com/heres-how-to-win-at-monopoly-according...

another edit: There's also a limited amount of houses/hotels the bank has, so there's strategy around getting houses first and leaving your opponents unable to build up their monopolies (another frequent house rule is that there unlimited houses too buy from the bank). If multiple players are trying to buy houses at once and there's not enough, the houses are auctioned again to the highest bidder (hello capitalism housing shortages).

You can also sell properties you own, or choose to stay in jail (frequent house rule is that you can't collect money while in jail, but this isn't an official rule).

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#134
post #110
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Park Place you have to land on it first. Not necessarily. The games rules include an auction that is frequently removed in house rules. What's supposed to happen is if the player who lands on the space (Player A) doesn't buy it from the bank, the property is auctioned to all players. Maybe no one owns Boardwalk yet, and Player A doesn't want to try and get the Park Place/Boardwalk monopoly. Or maybe Boardwalk is own…

You can calculate the game-theoretic value of all of the properties (I'm a little surprised that no one seems to have actually done this AFAICT -- maybe a project for next weekend). At that point the game reduces to pure luck: players who land on properties whose list price is less than their game-theoretic value will buy those properties and gain a (small) edge. The auction clearing price for rational players will b…

Liquidity is a thing, and trades are a combination of properties and cash passing between people who already have holdings of properties and cash that affect the subjective values of the properties being traded.

I think you're underestimating the complexity of your proposed calculation, and think is simply boils down to calculating how often particular spaces are landed on times the amount paid when they are landed on. I mean, it does, but the second part is not so simple.

What you have is a fairly complex strategy game, and the rest is pure luck (called dice.)

edit: I'd really be interested in seeing what you come up with (or imo, at what point you'd bail out) if you were to attempt to solve Monopoly. I'm at pessimizer@yahoo.com

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dead man walking" is one of the worst feelings ever. Settlers of Catan has a few "dead man walking" situations, but they're somewhat rare.... Especially because the optimal strategy in Catan is to trade with players weaker than you. So all "dead men walking" get boosted by the stronger players. The 1st place player never wants to trade with the 2nd place player, or vice versa. "Ticket to Ride" has more dead-man walk…

Nitpick on Catan. The optimal strategy is to trade with players weaker than you who have something worth trading. I've had many games where the "dead man walking" comes into effect because a player generates too few resources or not in demand resources (usually by bad initial placement) and therefore is only useful to squeeze for the occasional resource. They can't engage in constant trades because they literally hav…

I'm assuming decent initial placement (EVERYONE gets a pick at one of the 4-best spots in the game, and the player who get's 4th pick gets 4th AND 5th pick). Everyone has at least one good pick in my experience.

The situation where you have a clear "dead man walking", even when you did everything correctly, is when opposing players block you in with roads, preventing your expansion.

Once one of your initial 2 villages are blocked, the 2nd village becomes a target for blockage, because everyone knows that blocking your 2nd village will effectively eliminate you from the game.

Not "really eliminate", you're still a player and are kinda forced to play. But you can't make a 3rd village, and basically have no pathway to victory. A few unlucky rolls, or an opponent's lucky "Road Building" card, can bring up the road-block strategy extremely quickly.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#136
post #37

[flagged]

Weird, France has been under socialist governments plenty of times since the 30s and we never experienced any of that. You might be thinking about communism.

Communism has no state or government (and thus no politicians), which are the key features of his game.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#137
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't buying political advantage be just as bad under socialism or communism, etc?

Oh it still is. Capitalism is not exactly equal to "free market". There's still a hell of a lot of market under socialism. I'm just pointing out that you have to regulate SOMETHING. Regulating nothing = people amassing wealth and buying political influence = those current power holders regulating everyone else so the current power holders just continue to win. Then you don't have your "free market" anymore. It's inhe…

> There's still a hell of a lot of market under socialism

Completely agree. It's frustrating, because with words like "capitalism" and "socialism", why use words at all? Nobody means the same thing -- yet most people want the same thing -- it's really frustrating. I view it as a really important failure of science and philosophy. And a great opportunity for simulations in the service of empirical morality.

Which reminds me: Adam Smith's advisor wrote a whole tract on "Moral Computation" back in the early 1700s

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that if I hold 2 of the yellow and 1 of the green properties and you hold 1 of the yellow and 2 of the green in a 3+ person game, that we do have an intentional action that can leave us both better off.

Is trading legal in Monopoly? I'm assuming that's what you are referring to.

It is in my house.

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#139
post #95

[flagged]

> I love people who call capitalism evil while doing so on computers and phones that exist because of it, while surrounded by products, from their clothes to their desk, furniture, construction materials, cars and more that are the product of the system. This is a bad-faith argument - you're allowed to protest a system that you are forced to participate in. Our current system does not offer any clothes, furniture, ho…

[flagged]

Re: Monopoly was invented to demonstrate the evils of capitalism (2017)

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that if I hold 2 of the yellow and 1 of the green properties and you hold 1 of the yellow and 2 of the green in a 3+ person game, that we do have an intentional action that can leave us both better off.

Is trading legal in Monopoly? I'm assuming that's what you are referring to.

Yes. It's part of the official rules (and the absence of it would be fairly disastrous to the game dynamics I think).
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