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Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

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Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#11

Post by mattdeboard »

patio11 wrote: post #3

A bit of free advice from a consultant: if you get asked for a proposal, write a proposal which includes includes exactly what he needs to know to say "yes" and then ask for the "yes." That doesn't quite come across in that gloss. I don't know if I'd be angling for internships, though. Do you know what the difference between you and the typical junior Python dev is? The junior Python dev gets paid for programming Pyt…

I would have no problem applying for a junior dev position, but the position they're advertising isn't for a junior dev. But you're right on just applying (read: being more confident). I am not sure I'm quite ready to forsake pursuing my degree, however. That's probably dumb of me.

About the proposal, the resources I found with a quick search were mostly for companies seeking interns. Do you have a pointer to some resources for proposal-writing for interns? (This is a new concept to me.)

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#12

Post by patio11 »

Mz wrote: post #4

"Shadowing" is asking them to do something for you and offers nothing in return. It's a net loss for the company. You probably need to be willing to do whatever -- get coffee, stuff envelopes, sweep the floor. I have not done an internship of the sort you are wanting but did arrange an internship I needed for a college class. I went and asked. The longer I was there, the more I shaped it to what I wanted to do for th…

There are almost certainly people that have gone from stuffing envelopes to fulfilling, renumerative careers in technology, but that has vanishingly little to recommend it as strategy. Instead, try describing shadowing as something which creates value rather than ties up a valuable employee. (Humming a few bars: say you're working with the valuable employee and will, as a deliverable for the project, create X, where X is anything from the set of "things programmers know they should make but often fail to execute on", like documentation, a repeatable build/install/test process, etc etc etc. Plus as an added bonus, after you succeed on this project, you'll have intimate knowledge of the problem domain and company practices, they'll have intimate knowledge of your capabilities and personality, and will be a slam dunk hire for them.)

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#13

Post by Mz »

mattdeboard wrote: post #8
Mz wrote: post #4

"Shadowing" is asking them to do something for you and offers nothing in return. It's a net loss for the company. You probably need to be willing to do whatever -- get coffee, stuff envelopes, sweep the floor. I have not done an internship of the sort you are wanting but did arrange an internship I needed for a college class. I went and asked. The longer I was there, the more I shaped it to what I wanted to do for th…

And when I'm there in person, what do I say? If I was qualified for a position, or it was an advertised internship, it's a well-worn dialogue on what to do and say. However, this is the first time in my life I've been passionate enough about something to be willing to ask someone what I can do to help with nothing to gain from it but knowledge. Looking for specific "talking points," I guess.

In my case, it was a requirement that I spend like 40 hours doing volunteer work at a homeless shelter or similar for a class on homelessness and public policy. The class was online through a San Francisco college but I was in Fairfield, about 45 miles away. So folks actually in SF had a list to work from to seek internships. I had to find my own if I was going to do something local. I went and asked to speak with the director and explained that I needed this for the class, when I could be there, some of the things I could offer, etc. I had to get a drug test before they would say "yes".

Since you don't need this for a class, you will need to be a little more convincing. "What color is your parachute" may be helpful in that regard. I would go talk to the guy in charge and tell him what you have told us: "I really want to do X with my life and am changing careers. Your company is the only one in the local area doing stuff I find really interesting. I would love to have the opportunity to spend time here and learn from people who are smarter and more experienced than I am. I am willing to do whatever you need done that will let me spend time here. I am willing to do so without pay if there are no current job openings for which I qualify. Is there any way you would consider letting me do that?" It might also be helpful to mention that you are aware of monthly meetups but scheduling conflicts do not allow you to attend. You should be prepared to state what times you are available and how many hours per week you can commit to this. If turned down, be very gracious about it and thank him for his time. If you do get turned down, if possible, close with "Keep me in mind if you change your mind/if something changes/whatever the appropriate remark is for how the conversation went (ie the stated reason for saying no)."

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#14

Post by Mz »

patio11 wrote: post #12
Mz wrote: post #4

"Shadowing" is asking them to do something for you and offers nothing in return. It's a net loss for the company. You probably need to be willing to do whatever -- get coffee, stuff envelopes, sweep the floor. I have not done an internship of the sort you are wanting but did arrange an internship I needed for a college class. I went and asked. The longer I was there, the more I shaped it to what I wanted to do for th…

There are almost certainly people that have gone from stuffing envelopes to fulfilling, renumerative careers in technology, but that has vanishingly little to recommend it as strategy. Instead, try describing shadowing as something which creates value rather than ties up a valuable employee. (Humming a few bars: say you're working with the valuable employee and will, as a deliverable for the project, create X, where…

FWIW: I did end up doing a lot with computers for them -- bought them a domain name, set up a paypal account, updated their website, created custom excel sheets to modernize their handling of their overwhelming paperwork (apparently the norm in not-for-profit land) etc. But, no, it wasn't a technology company. So it was a different setting and I had different goals.

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#15

Post by mechanical_fish »

mattdeboard wrote: post #8
Mz wrote: post #4

"Shadowing" is asking them to do something for you and offers nothing in return. It's a net loss for the company. You probably need to be willing to do whatever -- get coffee, stuff envelopes, sweep the floor. I have not done an internship of the sort you are wanting but did arrange an internship I needed for a college class. I went and asked. The longer I was there, the more I shaped it to what I wanted to do for th…

And when I'm there in person, what do I say? If I was qualified for a position, or it was an advertised internship, it's a well-worn dialogue on what to do and say. However, this is the first time in my life I've been passionate enough about something to be willing to ask someone what I can do to help with nothing to gain from it but knowledge. Looking for specific "talking points," I guess.

With reference to patio11's comment above: Your talking point is "I want to write some code in Python for your company."

Then, if and when they turn you down for that job, you can approach the CEO at one of those local meetups and say, "Hey, I'm trying to become a better programmer; what should I study next? Here's a couple of my projects on Github so you can see the sort of things I've been working on."

You keep talking about how unqualified you are. Perhaps you are merely too shy. But if you're certain that you don't know Python well enough to write code in Python for money... learn more Python! You will have to teach yourself, of course, using books and blogs and example code from Github and Stack Overflow and semi-random Googling and surfing through your system's source code. You will have to get used to that: Web programmers are autodidacts, as they have had to be since the Web was invented, and as they will continue to be for at least another decade.

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#16

Post by mattdeboard »

Mz wrote: post #13
mattdeboard wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when I'm there in person, what do I say? If I was qualified for a position, or it was an advertised internship, it's a well-worn dialogue on what to do and say. However, this is the first time in my life I've been passionate enough about something to be willing to ask someone what I can do to help with nothing to gain from it but knowledge. Looking for specific "talking points," I guess.

In my case, it was a requirement that I spend like 40 hours doing volunteer work at a homeless shelter or similar for a class on homelessness and public policy. The class was online through a San Francisco college but I was in Fairfield, about 45 miles away. So folks actually in SF had a list to work from to seek internships. I had to find my own if I was going to do something local. I went and asked to speak with th…

Thanks for the longer explanation. I lived in Santa Clara until about 8 months ago, and visited Fairfield regularly for work. I know exactly how remote it is (relative to the Bay Area), so big ups on taking your ass to the city for an internship.

I'll keep your words in mind as I prepare what my email/remarks. Thanks.

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#17

Post by jamii »

I've been looking around for (post-grad) internships for the last few weeks. The most successful tactic so far has been to just email and ask directly. Make sure to link to some existing projects that you can show off so they know you won't just be dead weight. Show that you have actually researched the company and are interested in what they do. I've had a few interviews already with this sort of thing:

  > Person X, I saw your job posting on HN and wonder if you also accept interns?
  >
  > I have professional experience with python, erlang and ocaml and have
  > previously worked in a startup environment. I have
  > little practical experience in machine learning or data mining but I
  > do have some classroom learning as well as a solid background in math.
  >
  > I have a resume and portfolio online (
  > http://scattered-thoughts.net/all?jid=2&tag=about ). A few of the
  > smaller projects in there are vaguely relevant to Company X - a personal
  > job hunting agent (
  > http://scattered-thoughts.net/one/1274/311469/330868 ) and an email
  > chat bot for 419 baiting (
  > http://scattered-thoughts.net/one/1274/311469/329424 ).
  >
  > I am hoping to start a phd in September so I cannot accept permanent
  > positions at the moment. I am not a US citizen but I am eligible for a
  > J1 visa and able to move to SF without financial assistance.
  >
  > Thanks
  >
  > Jamie
Edit: Fixed the formatting

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#18

Post by mattdeboard »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #15
mattdeboard wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when I'm there in person, what do I say? If I was qualified for a position, or it was an advertised internship, it's a well-worn dialogue on what to do and say. However, this is the first time in my life I've been passionate enough about something to be willing to ask someone what I can do to help with nothing to gain from it but knowledge. Looking for specific "talking points," I guess.

With reference to patio11's comment above: Your talking point is "I want to write some code in Python for your company." Then, if and when they turn you down for that job, you can approach the CEO at one of those local meetups and say, "Hey, I'm trying to become a better programmer; what should I study next? Here's a couple of my projects on Github so you can see the sort of things I've been working on." You keep tal…

My friend & mentor keeps telling me to quit being a wussy and that I'm about as skilled as he was when he was a fresh graduate. I need to put on my big boy shorts and just apply. I am an enthusiastic autodidact so no problem there.

Re: Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

#20

Post by Mz »

mattdeboard wrote: post #16
Mz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case, it was a requirement that I spend like 40 hours doing volunteer work at a homeless shelter or similar for a class on homelessness and public policy. The class was online through a San Francisco college but I was in Fairfield, about 45 miles away. So folks actually in SF had a list to work from to seek internships. I had to find my own if I was going to do something local. I went and asked to speak with th…

Thanks for the longer explanation. I lived in Santa Clara until about 8 months ago, and visited Fairfield regularly for work. I know exactly how remote it is (relative to the Bay Area), so big ups on taking your ass to the city for an internship. I'll keep your words in mind as I prepare what my email/remarks. Thanks.

Thank you, though I actually took my arse to Vacaville, which is about ten miles up the road. I bought them this domain name: http://www.opportunityhouse.us/ Their website has come a long way in the time since then. They developed a lot in the time I volunteered there and the director did indicate that it helped enormously that I helped them streamline their paperwork and cut many man-hours from the process of keeping it up to date each month.

Good luck with your search for an internship.

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