Live data from Hacker News

How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

themarkup.org

141–150 of 167 posts

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#141
post #2

The insurance industry is notoriously afraid of transparency, and the state-based rate filing system makes it too easy to divide and conquer. This is an industry ripe for disruption via total transparency.

“This is an industry ripe for disruption via total transparency.” A lot of industries are ripe for this kind of disruption. With availability of more and more data there is a growing asymmetry between companies and consumers. Just yesterday I looked up something on Amazon. Sent the link to my girlfriend. She saw a price that was $10 more. Same often happens with flights. And in US healthcare the patient doesn’t even…

Companies have done this, and it doesn't work as well as you think. This is because a lot of protected classes and some other politically controversial demographics (poor people, old people, etc.) _cost more money to insure_. That is because they unequivocally do get into more accidents and have higher claim frequency.

Creating total transparency into this process would be suicide for these companies - they absolutely do rate on zipcode, and poor neighborhoods absolutely have higher rates because of fraud, break ins, and generally higher claim rates. However, if you didn't rate on zipcode, then you are under-priced for these areas and you will be killed by adverse selection.

TL;DR these companies have figured out how to obfuscate filings so people don't see them blatantly charging more for XYZ, and risk public outrage.

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of things we are 'required to buy' - food, shelter, etc. There is still competition, though, and we don't see price gouging in food, for example, just because people have to buy it. If insurance is so overpriced, then why don't other companies enter the market? I don't think insurance companies have crazy profit margins, so I don't think it is really price gouging going on. It might be shady competitiv…

> There is still competition, though, and we don't see price gouging in food, for example, just because people have to buy it. There's not a law that requires me to buy food, nor a law that requires me to buy specific types of food. I can grow my own food, or buy from other people locally if I wanted to. > If insurance is so overpriced, then why don't other companies enter the market? It takes extremely deep pockets…

Food and food sale is pretty regulated. There are probably even more regulations around food production than insurance.

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think average folks care about transparency, they mostly care about the bottom line. I would bet that if you offered a black-box $50/month with no explanation and a transparent, easily understood $60/month people would choose the cheaper option 9 times out of 9.

I am pretty young and have never bought any insurance, but am currently shopping for some. Since I hear relatively many "insurer didn't pay" stories (often because of a weird detail), I don't have much trust in insurance and do place a lot of value on actually understanding what will be covered. I'm still a fan of a good deal, but confidence in reliability is a pretty important part of the features, no?

I always read my insurance policies to see what's covered, to be honest insurance policies are very readable and fairly easy for the lay person to understand.

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#144
post #139
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like the parent you're responding to was making an argument for something, instead of describing the current reality.

Gotcha -- so it wasn't even trying to answer the prompt, and was just block of text that doesn't contribute to the discussion. Flagging, then. (not really, just saying ... keep your eye on the ball, commenters)

Hold on.

Here is the literal word for word question that I replied to:

"Why is the government in the business of disapproving prices in the first place?"

My answer was long winded and did not directly answer that question, but requires a person to come to the point themselves. Here's my answer: The government is in the business of disapproving prices because it requires people to purchase a product in order to engage in behavior that we feel is valuable, and the "government" (effectively, all of us) have decided that prices should be correlated with risk, and not discriminate on historically discriminated groups of people.

Are you seriously suggesting that the only answers to a rhetorical question should be arguing in favor of a position rather than explaining the logic behind a position?

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#145

How insurers determine your rate is generally available online [0]. That being said, some of the documents are almost unreadable. I recently tried to figure out how I could optimize the amount of renter's insurance coverage I got from State Farm for the premium paid (I'm currently paying the minimum premium that they'll charge for any renter's insurance policy; $125/year) and their posted document was so dense and fi…

> I'm currently paying the minimum premium that they'll charge for any renter's insurance policy; $125/year Unless that number varies by state, someone may not be being honest with you. I have a renter's policy with them for $115/yr.

I do believe it varies by state. I used to live in Indiana where the minimum premium was also $115/year.

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#146
post #89
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like the parent you're responding to was making an argument for something, instead of describing the current reality.

Perhaps. My "why are states in that business" was meant as a moral question, not a factual question.

[deleted]

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#147
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotcha -- so it wasn't even trying to answer the prompt, and was just block of text that doesn't contribute to the discussion. Flagging, then. (not really, just saying ... keep your eye on the ball, commenters)

Hold on. Here is the literal word for word question that I replied to: "Why is the government in the business of disapproving prices in the first place?" My answer was long winded and did not directly answer that question, but requires a person to come to the point themselves. Here's my answer: The government is in the business of disapproving prices because it requires people to purchase a product in order to engage…

You deleted your other response after I had already written a long response, so I'm going to reply here instead.

I do not believe it is a valuable use of my time to write, nor is it a valuable use of your time to read an argument in favor of the concept of a representative democracy, which is ultimately what an answer to "Why is the government in the business of disapproving prices in the first place?" would entail. The morals in play are these: 1. Do we consider the supposed "right" of a corporation to discriminate on the basis of race in pricing to supersede the right of a driver to affordable insurance?

2. Does a government have the right to require people to buy insurance?

3. Is the action of the "free market" in correcting unfair price discrimination so robust that government intervention is not only unnecessary, but counter-productive?

4. Is collectively subsidizing bad risks something that should be done explicitly (through government subsidies taken from taxation) or implicitly (through pricing that forces the cheapest insureds to pay a little more and the most expensive insureds to pay a little less)?

Answering these questions is an enormous waste of time if you're a libertarian or an anarchist. Asking a rhetorical question and expecting to get a moral justification for why "a government does a thing" is arguing in bad faith if you don't straight up say "Why is the government in the business of rejecting prices? Also, I don't think the government should reject prices because the free market will figure it out. I am not going to change my mind on this."

My reply:

1. Entirely irrelevant. Corporations have no rights. Neither does anyone have a right to cheap services. It may be a good public policy goal for certain services to be more affordable than the market clearing price - I believe this should be addressed via subsidies absent a strong market failure argument.

2. I already agreed with this. Although I wouldn't frame any of this as a "right", the question is if it's a good idea for the government to do so. The government has a "right" to pay people to dig ditches and then refill them, but it would be a bad idea.

3. The burden of proof should be on the person arguing for additional regulations. I reject the attempt to shift the burden of proof. I'm asking for the case for regulation; "you can't conclusively prove that it's harmful" is not a positive case for regulation.

4. This is a legitimate question. You've made no arguments on this question so far, but I will reply to any arguments you may make on this issue in good faith. My prior is that explicit subsidies are likelier to be more efficient.

I'm not a libertarian or an anarchist. I'm just skeptical of government action and expect strong justifications for regulations. It's clear that many regulations are harmful and that some are beneficial, and it's also clear that many lawmakers or regulators have not thought all that deeply about what the best system of regulation is. Being skeptical and expecting justification before something like price controls is hardly bad faith.

Finally, "I think this particular thing the government does is harmful" is a very different claim than "I don't believe in representative democracy". Let's stipulate that representative democracy is better than any realistic alternative. That still doesn't tell us whether any particular action is good.

P.S. I tend to favor regulations that involve higher transparency, as opposed to banning actions completely, as there are strong economic benefits to information. I also like pigovian taxes on negative externalities. Don't assume that everyone you meet is the most extreme strawman that shares those views.

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#148
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Maybe it showed you the lowest-cost vendor, and showed her the lowest-cost vendor with Prime shipping ? And the difference was $10? Or was it shipped from and sold by the same place?

No idea. Shipping would have been for both of us.

Not sure what you mean — prime members get faster shipping on prime items, so maybe it showed her the vender with “prime” and that was $10 more expensive.

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint, had USAA auto for 20+ years, added 2 young drivers and premiums went up 4200 per year. Switched to Geico and recouped 2700 of that. Always shop around.

Tip, Geico will give you an 8 percent discount for owning shares of Berkshire Hathaway.

Do you just let the customer rep know?

Re: How Allstate’s auto insurance algorithm squeezes big spenders

#150

> One 36-year-old man from Prince George’s County, Md., who Allstate said in public records should have been paying $3,750 every six months, was instead being charged twice that, more than $7,500. This man was being charged over $15,000/year for auto insurance?

There is a situation in relative poverty where you become so risk averse you end up paying outsized prices for things because you can't afford the risk of a change. If this person lost his ability to drive based on not being able to get insurance, challenging the insane amount he is being charged is just too much risk. Who knows what kind of events have occurred in his credit history, personal life, social media, or…

Or they own a dozen vehicles.
Post reply on HN