Earlier quoted context omitted.
ISPs can and do sell your information, and can also be served a warrant or NSL. Cloudflare, by contract, is prohibited from doing the former, which is a net improvement even if they're still subject to the latter. It's an incremental improvement, but a positive one. I would certainly love to see an even better protocol for Internet name resolution that prevents anyone from having name-lookup information, but in the m…
> ISPs can and do sell your information Not in my country, they'll be massively fined if they're caught doing that.
Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
601–610 of 777 posts
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#602Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is a good point, but it is also mostly independent from DoH, a VPN with an hardcoded IP would have worked in the same way (if you look into elusive VPNs you can also find some that work by injecting traffic into padding of another connection). The only difference is if you are worrying about the traffic leaving your own browser and in that case you can just not enable DoH
My passive network sniffers may throw red flags on suspicious traffic which may end up being VPN. By disguising non-web traffic over the (until now) web-mostly HTTPS, it makes the job of someone who wants to be a responsible netizen and monitor their network that much harder.
Also VPN sniffing can be arbitrarily hard, for example if I remember correctly tools like https://www.softether.org/ are designed to work around the Chinese internet firewall.
From my point of view DoH add nothing outside the browser.
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#603Earlier quoted context omitted.
ISPs can and do sell your information, and can also be served a warrant or NSL. Cloudflare, by contract, is prohibited from doing the former, which is a net improvement even if they're still subject to the latter. It's an incremental improvement, but a positive one. I would certainly love to see an even better protocol for Internet name resolution that prevents anyone from having name-lookup information, but in the m…
Your ISP, however, is not prevented from collecting and selling your data by DoH. So the addition of default DoH in cloudflare adds an extra party that can intercept your traffic but does not remove any. > DoH seems like a huge step forward in ensuring that no unencrypted traffic is visible to the ISP or local network It does not do this.
Yes, of course your ISP can see who you're connecting to and sell that, but denying them (and anyone else) the ability to collect all DNS traffic is better than not denying that.
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#604Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your ISP is literally selling this information right now in the US. What are you even talking about? Use google if you don't like CF, or just disable it! Do a little threat modeling here please. Let's say CF sells this data, what do they know about you other than your IP and the sites you visit? While your ISP,employer,school,etc... Can tie that activity to you as a person. Being compelled legally? I did not know pri…
> Your ISP is literally selling this information right now No, mine is not. > Use google if you don't like CF Google is no better. > or just disable it! It is never okay to hijack my DNS lookups. Posting a note someplace about how it can be restored does not change the fact that you hijacked it, and does not make it okay. > This is not adding a new party that can surveil you Given that the DoH provider is a new party…
Encrypted SNI and OCSP stapling solve those problems.
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#605Earlier quoted context omitted.
And until ESNI gets high adoption they can also just look at the SNI header. I do not see how DoH gives any significant amount of extra privacy.
DoH doesn't need to provide extra privacy to make sense (although it is a mandatory stepping stone to good privacy). It also provides a difficult to block security upgrade (as opposed to DoT, which is easy to block). We've seen regular US ISPs hijack unencrypted DNS to insert content or replace sites entirely. We've also seen bad actors do far worse on public WiFi. So acting like DoH is a waste of time unless every p…
If you're worried about ISPs snooping on what sites you visit, they'll continue to be able to do this even with widespread DoH/DoT and ESNI adoption. You still need to connect to an IP and TLS certs still have unique serials (most of which appear on public CT logs). Correlated over a large user population, that's more than enough to get a pretty decent, aggregate view of what sites you're browsing (certainly enough to tailor ads/marketing towards you).
As for random third party networks (e.g. Starbucks wifi), if you're not using a VPN then I don't see what expectation of privacy/security you had in the first place.
Ultimately, if you don't trust your ISP (or whatever network you happen to be connected to), the only meaningful option is a VPN. Encrypting your DNS traffic to a resolver (whether with DoH or DoT) is, at best, a very incremental improvement in the arms race. It protects users against some of the most egregious ISP abuses (assuming said ISP doesn't also spoof the cert...) at the expense of potentially misleading them into thinking they have more privacy than they actually do. In the case of DoH it will also likely inadvertently end up centralising a huge chunk of DNS lookups in to the hands of a few large corporations thanks to it being opt-out rather than opt-in. At least DoT avoids that (and offers server-to-server encryption).
Much better for users who want unfettered internet access and privacy to encrypt the whole lot with a VPN and use a resolver that validates DNSSEC. If the chain of resolvers were all DoT enabled that would definitely be a nice extra but hardly essential.
Alternatively, if you're in a country with a healthy ISP market (and government you're not afraid of), there's always the option to simply move to a provider that doesn't tamper with and monetise user traffic.
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#606I'm so sad to see Mozilla move forward with this massive attack on user privacy. Firefox DoH is snake oil, plain and simple. It sends all the users DNS queries to Cloudflare, adding a new party which can surveil the user's traffic (and can be legally compelled to do so and not disclose this fact)-- providing a convenient choke point to save spies and hackers the trouble and exposure of extracting the data from tens o…
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#607Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only way to solve the ISP DNS inspection problem is by one of: * Using DoH. For this to work with PiHole, you need to have a DoH resolver on the device, and then instruct the PiHole to recurse to that resolver instead - possibly your own in a VM somewhere? * Using a permanent encrypted VPN to your own machine in the cloud and routing all DNS through that, then recursing to some DNS that you trust. * Write your ow…
DNS over TSL (DoT) is a much better alternative to DoH, at least when it comes to the ability to be tracked. For example, because it’s not using HTTP, there are no cookies or SNI to worry about. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22418005 .
> For example, because it’s not using HTTP, there are no cookies or SNI to worry about.
> More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22418005.
The fact that it can be trivially blocked by anyone on the network path does not make it "much better".
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#608Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your ISP is literally selling this information right now in the US. What are you even talking about? Use google if you don't like CF, or just disable it! Do a little threat modeling here please. Let's say CF sells this data, what do they know about you other than your IP and the sites you visit? While your ISP,employer,school,etc... Can tie that activity to you as a person. Being compelled legally? I did not know pri…
> What are you even talking about? Can you please edit swipes like that out of your comments when posting to HN? They break the site guidelines and provoke others into doing worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
By only responding to one person it gives the impression that you think the first person did nothing wrong.
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#609Earlier quoted context omitted.
Firefox tries to recognize some personalized DNS servers and prefer them to DoH in cases where it finds them. The FAQ here suggests that work is ongoing and they are hoping tech-savvy DNS alternatives used for things like parental controls and ad blocking meet them somewhere in the middle in terms of making it easier to Firefox to auto-disable DoH when a user has explicitly opted in to more power user configurations.…
> you should be able to find the Firefox settings on your devices to disable DoH, You should be able to find a buried config option to regain your privacy is _not_ a position that we should consider acceptable! There are serious logistical challenges keeping the option off even at a household level. At the moment it isn't difficult to block at the network level, but presumably they'll start evading those blocks event…
Have you considered using a different browser? One that aligns more with your values?
Re: Mozilla’s DNS over HTTPs
#610I'm so sad to see Mozilla move forward with this massive attack on user privacy. Firefox DoH is snake oil, plain and simple. It sends all the users DNS queries to Cloudflare, adding a new party which can surveil the user's traffic (and can be legally compelled to do so and not disclose this fact)-- providing a convenient choke point to save spies and hackers the trouble and exposure of extracting the data from tens o…
> Firefox DoH is snake oil, plain and simple. This is not an accurate statement, for the commonly accepted definition of "snake oil". Your privacy concerns are, from an angle, legitimate (although encrypted protocols, as a general rule, are more private than plaintext protocols), but this is a bit over the top. TFA also mentions that they are partnering with NextDNS, so your claims about centralization are on shaky g…
The only way Cloudflare itself can cause users a privacy issue through the use of its DNS service is by lying to them. They have already agreed not to sell or grant the data to any third party or use it for advertising, etc.
The other concern nullc has is that hackers will infiltrate Cloudflare because it will now contain data on all US Firefox users' DNS queries unless those users change default settings. OK. I guess. However, I will say that I trust Cloudflare a whole heckuva lot more than I trust Comcast, Charter, AT&T, Verizon, etc. to be practicing good security. There are also probably more people on the mega ISPs than there are Firefox users, and many DNS queries these days originate from platforms that aren't even PCs (such as home theater streaming sticks) which will still be pinging default DHCP-received DNS providers. If anything, I see this decentralizing DNS request data.