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Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

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Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#281

Post by whiddershins »

pengaru wrote: post #201

For some reason I don't get creative and productive until the hours I should be sleeping. Throughout my teens and twenties (I'm in my 40s now) I indulged this tendency and it served me well, often staying up for multiple days without realizing it and the productivity was incredible. Since then I've become more interested in preserving/improving my health and how such behaviors may be harming it, so I try to keep a re…

This isn’t always true, but in general, you can tell by how you feel whether something is very likely affecting your long term health.

If you truly feel fantastic staying up for days on end, and then sleeping extra for a while ... I know at least one hyper successful person who uses to be the same way.

She eventually outgrew it, and stopped.

I am skeptical this harmed her long term.

Now, lots of behavior makes you feel great and is in fact terrible for you ... but even obvious ones like drugs tend to be felt in subsequent days, same with that awesome tasting cheeseburger, etc.

So I think it’s worth it to at least entertain the notion it isn’t as harmful to pull all nighters for you as is commonly said.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#282

Post by seer »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #85
_1100 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll add n+1 to this anecdote. Found a form of exercise I was excited and willing to get up for, now I wake up around 5:45 every morning trying to drag my “early riser” wife out of bed to go start the day. Was a complete night owl before, and my wife was constantly reminding me that it was late and time to call it a day.

Off topic, but if you don’t mind me asking, what exercise could possibly be exciting at 5:45? I ask because I’ve been trying to find exercise that makes me excited to get up and do it but I’ve been drawing blanks.

For me personally it has always be the tribal thing - having a group that all subject themselves to an early rise helped quite a lot to power through days that I didn’t feel like it and made the good times a lot more memorable.

Have in mind that 6:00am is some other timezone’s 10am. It is possible to get accustomed to living in another timezone, so thats what you’ll generally be doing - getting through the “jet lag”. How do you do it normally? Well just attempt to get into the habits of the locals and you’ll get there. You just need to find “locals” in your desired “time zone” so to speak.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#283

Post by pbhjpbhj »

LameRubberDucky wrote: post #273
mindcrime wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but people who claim "they've made the switch" just don't get it. Agreed. At 46, and having been a night-owl pretty much my entire life, I'm skeptical that you can just "switch" to another mode. Maybe you can, through very conscious and focused effort, manage to adapt to what appears to be a "morning person" lifestyle; but I suspect that people who do that are ultimately just faking it. That said, I've nev…

Anecdotally, at 51 and previously thought the same as you, I'm going to disagree. I'm closing in on two years of getting up at 5:00 am and it doesn't bother me anymore. I never thought it would be possible for me to adapt, but so far I have and I have no intention of changing. Time will tell.

Maybe there's a hormonal aspect to this? Do you think that's possible, as you're getting to be - please forgive my noting this - past reproductive age [menopause and/or lower testosterone levels come around this age AFAIK].

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#284

Post by pknight »

vneur wrote: post #138
dot1x wrote: post #118

For those interested, Internal Time [1] does a good job at explaining chronotypes. People that say they "changed from night owl to early riser" (or vice-versa) have never been night owls in the first place, but something else was the cause (diet, screen time, etc). Chronotypes are genetics-based so no amount of wishful thinking will make you a night owl or an early riser (though obviously you can try and force this w…

Some caveats to think about for that particular book in this blog post: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ (I'm not a researcher in the area, so not sure how valid either side of this is!)

An interesting read, but the article comes across as an unhinged attack piece brimming with silliness. Better to get a take from a proper scientist with more balanced views.

Point number one of his list of 'egregious' errors is the idea that shorter sleep does not imply shorter life span, but all of the recently published meta-analyses make that connection convincingly (for the population sleeping There is criticism to be had on Walker, he overstimulates his readers with fear-inducing statements which can definitely backfire.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#285

Post by boomlinde »

Raphmedia wrote: post #182
boomlinde wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you were able to "no longer be a night owl" after changing diet, through exercise or by other changes in your behavior, you were in fact never an actual night owl but simply someone with bad sleeping habits. Is there an established strict definition of "night owl" that supports this conclusion? I always thought a night owl meant anyone who for whatever reason prefers to stay up late and sleep in, which doesn't r…

This is part of the issue and one of the causes of the stigma. People who have biological and/or genetic particularities and are unable to follow regular sleep cycles should not be put in the same category as people who have regular circadian rhythm. This article is about biological factors so its safe to assume we are discussing about people with actual circadian disorders and not people who have bad habits. "Circad…

> Key part of this being "persistent or recurrent".

The key part is that it's related to the circadian rhythm and time keeping. That it's persistent and recurrent doesn't in itself distinguish it from other sleep disorders that may cause delayed sleep schedule, such as sleep-onset insomnia, or "bad habits" as you call it.

> Adding a distinction could help. Perhaps "voluntary night owl" vs "involuntary night owl".

If you want to address people affected by e.g. DSPD, and not "night owls" in general, it is perhaps just better to simply address them as such.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#286

Post by Anthony-G »

arcturus17 wrote: post #213
Anthony-G wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve upvoted your comment but I would disagree with saying “ your clock is messed up ”. The OP’s clock is fine and acting as it it’s ‘programmed’ to. What’s messed up is the way society places a higher value on the circadian rhythms of early-risers over those of night owls. I recall hearing a theory that having individuals with differing circadian rhythms within the same social group provided an evolutionary advantag…

I agree with you, but I wasn't saying OP's clock was messed up, I meant they might feel so due to the societal pressures you describe.

Ah, OK. I had originally parsed your sentence as it sucks to feel that you're underperforming and your clock is messed up as two separate clauses. On re-reading it, I can see that it can be interpreted as “it sucks to feel that you're underperforming b/c your clock is messed up”. Thanks for the clarification. I had upvoted your comment because I found the rest to be thoughtful and insightful.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#287

Post by Funes- »

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

>EDIT: Based on the comments here, I just need to have a kid.

Or a sick relative you have to take care of, or a physically draining job.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#288

Post by pbhjpbhj »

gwbas1c wrote: post #185
schuke wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the genetical night owl can pull this off too?

I was quite the night owl before my first child came. I think the change is part biology, and part the emotional connection to my children. There is no job, hobby, or other calling that could turn me into an early riser like raising children.

I think we perhaps need some info on the sex of, and level of responsibilities of, the people claiming to be cured by having children.

[Father's testosterone levels drop considerably starting a little prior to birth of their children (and when taking on care of young children) reportedly. Mother's hormonal changes go without saying, I feel.]

Just FWIW none of my well-spaced in age children fixed me. But having a fluid sleep cycle often meant I wasn't bothered. Sometimes I'm super awake at 4am, sometimes 6am, sometimes I'm ready to crash by 4pm, sometimes by midnight.

What killed me was having to work a second job during the night-time with our first kid, not fun.

In short, still broken sleep cycle, almost exactly like my mother has been through her life AFAICT.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#289

Post by Anthony-G »

Relys wrote: post #238
Anthony-G wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve upvoted your comment but I would disagree with saying “ your clock is messed up ”. The OP’s clock is fine and acting as it it’s ‘programmed’ to. What’s messed up is the way society places a higher value on the circadian rhythms of early-risers over those of night owls. I recall hearing a theory that having individuals with differing circadian rhythms within the same social group provided an evolutionary advantag…

Yes, that theory is actually talked about in the book "Why We Sleep" which is mentioned in the comment you are responding too. "Why We Sleep" and "The Body Keeps the Score" are two of the most helpful books I've ever read (and both found by reading HN book suggestions).

It was Why We Sleep, alright. I had started the book last year but only read the first couple of chapters. I must return to it and finish it. Thanks for the other suggestion.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#290

Post by Elof »

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

Your edit is spot on. I was exactly like you until I became a father. Now up at 6:15 and asleep at 9:30. I used to have a horrible time falling asleep and on and off insomnia. All that is no more too.
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