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In Britain, even jails have a class system

theatlantic.com

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Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#101

Post by chacha2 »

philwelch wrote: post #96
wpietri wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

> I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky. How did that work out for them? * The abolition of the English monarchy led to the brutal military dictatorship of Cromwell, which ended only with the reestablishment of the monarchy. * The abolition of the French monarchy led…

The Rhetoric of Reaction Albert O. Hirschman [1]

Hirschman describes the reactionary narratives thus:

- According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy.

- The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent."

- Finally, the jeopardy thesis argues that the cost of the proposed change or reform is too high as it endangers some previous, precious accomplishment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rhetoric_of_Reaction

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#102

Post by dang »

spinglespingle wrote: post #25
broodje wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is identifying someone by their nationality racist?

not at all, but singling out a single ethnicity out of a massively mixed prison, quite is. particularly when it falls in the line of dailymail propaganda. or is racism racism only when against certain groups and not all?

Could you please stop?

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#103

Post by philwelch »

chacha2 wrote: post #101
philwelch wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky. How did that work out for them? * The abolition of the English monarchy led to the brutal military dictatorship of Cromwell, which ended only with the reestablishment of the monarchy. * The abolition of the French monarchy led…

The Rhetoric of Reaction Albert O. Hirschman [1] Hirschman describes the reactionary narratives thus: - According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy. - The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent…

Which is not what I'm doing at all.

If we're going to talk about the abolition of monarchies, how is it that some of the freest and most prosperous countries in the world today are constitutional monarchies? Norway, Australia, Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Belgium, Japan, Luxembourg, and Spain all rank within the top 25 of countries by HDI as well as the top 25 of countries by Democracy Index. All of those countries are monarchies.

And you still haven't addressed the historical fact that the styles of radicalism that led to the abolition of monarchies in England, France, and Russia utterly failed to make things better and, in fact, largely made things worse. That doesn't mean it's futile or counterproductive to improve society, but merely removing the existing hierarchy and attempting to install something bespoke in its place has historically been a failing proposition, while reforming and improving an existing system has historically been much more successful.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#104

Post by netcan »

>>A December 2017 parliamentary report said up to 90 percent of prisoners have mental-health problems, and 12 percent turn to self-harm or attempt suicide multiple times.

How could it be otherwise? Even ignoring the likely correlation between psychological problems and incarceration... Prison is a terrible environment by its nature and by design.

Would we be surprised if concentration camp or gulag inhabitants had mental health issues?

Effectively, psychological injury is part of the punishment.

It's strange to think that prisons are relatively new.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#105

Post by netcan »

arethuza wrote: post #7

I can strongly recommend "A Bit of a Stretch" - I read it after reading "The Secret Barrister: Stories of the Law and How It's Broken" which is pretty terrifying.

An honest look at criminal justice is actually terrifying, even moreso because we don't even have a lead on alternatives.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#106

Post by crispyporkbites »

> People of the prisoner class have really, really bought into the capitalist dream. But they were too unlucky, ill-educated, unfortunate, or born in the wrong place to have all the things that society has told them they should have. They were taught from a very early age: You can have it all, not just the wealth but the stuff. Trainers [sneakers] are a big deal, watches are a big deal, cars are a big deal.

This almost nails it. The reality is that the British lower classes can have all the stuff they want; trainers, watches, cars are within the grasp of anyone above the poverty line. But wealth is almost unattianble for the lower classes in the UK. It just doesn't go in that direction.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#107

Post by crispyporkbites »

netcan wrote: post #104

>> A December 2017 parliamentary report said up to 90 percent of prisoners have mental-health problems, and 12 percent turn to self-harm or attempt suicide multiple times. How could it be otherwise? Even ignoring the likely correlation between psychological problems and incarceration... Prison is a terrible environment by its nature and by design. Would we be surprised if concentration camp or gulag inhabitants had m…

How many prisoners entered with mental health problems? Probably the majority.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#108

Post by seemslegit »

"People of the prisoner class have really, really bought into the capitalist dream. But they were too unlucky, ill-educated, unfortunate, or born in the wrong place to have all the things that society has told them they should have. They were taught from a very early age: You can have it all, not just the wealth but the stuff. Trainers [sneakers] are a big deal, watches are a big deal, cars are a big deal."

I'd say this is fraudulent writing but it would be stating the obvious since written by someone literally convicted of fraud. The "stuff" comes before wealth for most people in all systems but it is actually in socialist societies where personal wealth does not generally exist that the acquisition of basic consumer goods is given central significance, gifting them becomes an accepted and expected way to get people dispensing nominally free or fixed-cost social services to deliver first preferential and later merely adequate service.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#110

Post by iovrthoughtthis »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #107
netcan wrote: post #104

>> A December 2017 parliamentary report said up to 90 percent of prisoners have mental-health problems, and 12 percent turn to self-harm or attempt suicide multiple times. How could it be otherwise? Even ignoring the likely correlation between psychological problems and incarceration... Prison is a terrible environment by its nature and by design. Would we be surprised if concentration camp or gulag inhabitants had m…

How many prisoners entered with mental health problems? Probably the majority.

This is a slippery slope my friend. I’m not sure we should go this way.
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