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At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

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Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I try to be a nice guy, I like to assume the best of most people. Of course the voters are good hackers.

Good hackers like to look at data , and there's none that indicates whether these people upvoting the random off-topic stuff are actually good hackers or something else.

I just told you I was not trying to be literal. I used the term because the assumption is that HN is for good hackers in the sense that it is employed in the guidelines, intellectually curious people. Obviously this is seriously bugging you. Would you be happy if I remove the term?

As far as the article being off-topic.

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as something of a liberal, this makes me feel conflicted. It doesn't quite feel like harm reduction - just cost-reduction for the agencies. It's very bleak.

The article paints a bleak picture, but it's essentially a homeless shelter for alcoholics who have long since given up on treatment. It's not really direct "harm reduction" in the same sense as needle exchange clinics. More a way to make a few people's lives slightly less miserable; I find it difficult to object to that.

I think there's still many homeless who still have hope, and they are more deserving of the shelter and medical attention. But that's no reason to say that the guys who are lucky enough to get shelter don't deserve it.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#33
It seems pretty logical that St. Anthony's -- in certain cases -- is preferrable to the AA model.

What bothers me is that my understanding is that a large percentage of long-time alcoholics and homeless have mental health issues. These issues would perhaps best be addressed by forcably interning them in mental health institutions (which, again according to my limited understanding, have gotten somewhat of an unfairly bad reputation in the last fifty years). Perhaps using the the correct pharmaceuticals and treatment would be better than the "drink yourself to death" approach. However, this would involve removing the freedom of the homeless person to decide for himself. It's a tough choice, but all in all I applaud rational systems that are subject to a-posteriori measurements of efficacy.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#35
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good hackers like to look at data , and there's none that indicates whether these people upvoting the random off-topic stuff are actually good hackers or something else.

I just told you I was not trying to be literal. I used the term because the assumption is that HN is for good hackers in the sense that it is employed in the guidelines, intellectually curious people. Obviously this is seriously bugging you. Would you be happy if I remove the term? As far as the article being off-topic. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sp…

Yes, the thinking that "it must be hacker news because lots of people voted for it" bothers me.

This thread is worth perusing:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2235206

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#36
This is the equivalent of heroin injection galleries that has been trialled in various parts of the world. The basic idea is that these people are at less risk of overdosing, or sharing needles. Basic medical care is readily available should these people need it.

I just haven't heard it being done for chronic alcoholics. But the hospice analogy is correct.

It is the equivalent of palliative care for cancer patients who have given up (or their doctors have given up) further treatment.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#37
My first job in a hospital (I'm an ER nurse ) in 1993 was as an ER tech at Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis.

After welfare checks came out at the beginning of the months, we would have literally dozens of homeless alcoholics lining the hallways of the ER, sometimes stacked in gurneys along the wall, three deep.

The beginning of the month, people would drink hard liquor. Middle of the month, cheap grain alcohol and towards the end of the month, when Walgreens sold 1 liter bottles of Listerine for $2, "List" became the drink of choice.

At the time, it was illegal to be publicly intoxicated in Minneapolis, so the police would pick up the drunks and bring them to the ER for medical clearance, but never take them to jail when they were sober. So, the drunks would marinate all night in the ER until they could blow less than 0.1 on a breathalyser and then they could walk out.

ER overcrowding with drunks became such a huge problem, that the hospital opened up a "drunk tank" or a dedicated hospital unit to let these guys sleep and sober up. It was a 25 bed unit, and you weren't eligible to stay on that unit unless your alcohol level was over 0.3. I routinely saw people at 0.4 and occasionally 0.5. (Legally drunk in California is 0.08 these days.)

On top of that, the ER built a dedicated holding unit for the alcoholics who blew between 0.1 and 0.3 on the breathalyser. It was an 8 room locked holding unit. staffed by 2 nurses, 2 security guards and 2 ER techs. One night, I remember holding over 26 patients in there.

One night, two police officers (understandably) who were quite fed up with the situation brought in 3 patients soaked in urine and feces in to the ER in their patrol car. They could only fit 1 in the back seat of their car, so they brought the other two.... in the trunk of the cop car. Bad plan.

Someone called the press, the cops were suspended. The two alcoholics pressed a lawsuit against the city of Minneapolis, and were awarded $4 Million in damages.

Hennepin County Medical Center, the ER where the alcoholics were brought to knew these two men well. They had had over 200 ER visits and/or hospitalizations in the previous 2 years. So, Hennepin County immediately pursued payment for these two men's ER bills (over $2 Million each), and got a lien on the lawsuit money.

A month after the suit was settled and these men received the payment for the county, and paid off their hospital bill, they started frequenting the ER where I worked yet again--passed out, covered in feces and soaked in urine.

I'm not trying to make judgments. It's a terrible situation all around. Alcoholism is a terrible disease. And, when it's terminal... I think hospice might be the smarter choice.

At least via the hospice model, the alcoholics can die with a few shreds of dignity instead of passing out drunk in a snow bank when it's -20F in the Minnesota winters and having toes and then feet amputated because of frost bite. Also, in the hospice model, the health care system can take care of people who can best use their services.

Good article. It brought back a lot of interesting memories. :)

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#38

I don't think I have a problem with it yet, because I'm rationalizing. It somehow makes sense. I'm not sure I would feel the same if someone I cared for decided this would be the solution to their problem though. I suspect many people will feel similarly. If my suspicions are correct, I wonder if we're witnessing a paradigm shift about problems such as alcoholism, drugs and homelessness. Are we as a society beginning…

I have read of a shift from treating addiction as a criminal issue to treating it as a public health issue, and this seems to fit with that. As with cancer, when a cure seems sufficiently improbable, trying to salvage remaining dignity while also reducing costs to society, through hospices, is certainly thought of well around here.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#39
post #7

Interesting. I can see how it would be appealing to long-time alcoholics (the "endless optimism" would get pretty sickening). Not entirely sure what my stance is on it, though - it's essentially long-term non-profit euthanasia. It's what they want, but it's also what they want because they're addicted and it's re-wired their brain so drastically they'll do just about anything to keep feeding it. On the flip side, reh…

long-term non-profit euthanasia

Not really. Euthanising long-term alcoholics would mean taking a syringe full of paralytics, potassium, versed and morphine and pushing as a lethal injection.

Hospice is realizing they are dying from their disease and providing for them while the disease runs its course.

Re: At St. Paul 'wet house,' liquor can be their life - and death

#40
post #7

Interesting. I can see how it would be appealing to long-time alcoholics (the "endless optimism" would get pretty sickening). Not entirely sure what my stance is on it, though - it's essentially long-term non-profit euthanasia. It's what they want, but it's also what they want because they're addicted and it's re-wired their brain so drastically they'll do just about anything to keep feeding it. On the flip side, reh…

It seems like a very pragmatic solution for now.

I think it could be taken a step further by providing an alternative to going out onto the street to try to get alcohol in various forms (including mouthwash).

While I'm certainly no expert on psychology, my experience has shown me that sometimes the best way to get some tiny bit of purchase on a group of people is to offer a minimally reasonable alternative.

For example, if scrapers are constantly inundating your website one solution is to publically offer an API. Obtaining the data is easier through the API and reduces the automated hits to the human readable part of your website. You can require API users uniquely identify themselves and you are then able to throttle and better track how your data is dispensed.

Following this line of thinking: Why not put in a alcohol vending machine that dispenses variable percentage alcohol based on BAC of the user and frequency of use? It could also adjust the alcohol content up or down based on other factors, like recent civil service or run-ins with the police.

I could think of hundreds of ways this could be improved. Since you are likely getting BAC readings on a regular basis you have a measure of how successful your dispensing profile is. With enough machines you could even split test different percentages, etc... If the machine is not getting any use at first the alcohol level could be stepped up.

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