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In Britain, even jails have a class system

theatlantic.com

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Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#51

Post by lidHanteyk »

jxramos wrote: post #27

I'm guessing any group of humanity will naturally form hierarchies. Seems like part of human nature.

No, there have existed non-hierarchical groups of humans, and all human endeavors are natural.

Any group of humans will naturally form social relations. Some of these relations will be power-responsibility relations, where people trade responsibilities to do things which maintain the society in exchange for the power to choose how the things are done. This does not entail hierarchy, because it does not entail rootedness; there need not be any single person nor group of people who hold ultimate power and responsibility.

Interestingly, you know what does naturally form hierarchies? Capitalist markets, especially those which alienate laborers from the profits of labor. It is straightforward maths to show that markets tend to accumulate wealth in a few lucky individuals, and that wealth alone can be used to manipulate markets arbitrarily.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#52

Post by save_ferris »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #42
dmix wrote: post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

Not necessarily. Smuggling contraband into prison has got to be as old as the existence of prison itself, and there are numerous examples of contraband being snuck in and traded without the knowledge of the staff. It’s errant to assume that all cases of contraband existing in prison is due to corrupt staff.

In fact, this issue is becoming more and more of a challenge today as drone technology advances and decreases in price[0].

0: https://www.npr.org/2017/11/15/564272346/prisons-work-to-kee...

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#53

Post by crispinb »

jxramos wrote: post #27

I'm guessing any group of humanity will naturally form hierarchies. Seems like part of human nature.

There are evolutionarily-created biases, which often counter each other. So, yes, it's part of human nature, but so is a sense of fairness. Cultures differentially encourage and build on these native biases in different ways.

A deeply historically-entrenched class system is to a natural hierarchy bias is as an ocean is to a pond. I grew up in the UK, and the upper class were quite literally a different type of human, placed by history and the structures of society above us in every way. In my local town, even their school was physically placed to look over us. They spoke with different accents. Their schools were allotted places in the top universities. We were allotted places in local farms. Their failed children were given positions (often in the old colonies) which guaranteed them lifelong ease and comfort. This was all a long way removed from 'natural hierarchy'.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#54

Post by mytailorisrich »

save_ferris wrote: post #52
mytailorisrich wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

Not necessarily. Smuggling contraband into prison has got to be as old as the existence of prison itself, and there are numerous examples of contraband being snuck in and traded without the knowledge of the staff. It’s errant to assume that all cases of contraband existing in prison is due to corrupt staff. In fact, this issue is becoming more and more of a challenge today as drone technology advances and decreases i…

Smuggling is impossible unless staff turn a blind eye, or procedures are sufficiently lax. Preventing visitors from passing things to inmates is not rocket science, if you allow visitors at all.

As for drones, let me try to fly a drone over GCHQ or the Pentagon and let's see what happens... But over a prison and then actually drop something? "Oh well, what can we do? Can't even find what they drop..."

The point in all of this is that no-one cares too much so it happens, but it is avoidable.

I was expecting a bit more of a can-do attitude on HN instead of accepting this sorry state of affairs!

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#55

Post by lidHanteyk »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #29
yarrel wrote: post #8

No, American jails have a class system. British ones contain one.

Please elaborate. As it is, this flew over my head.

It's to do with British English vs. American English. In the USA, a TV remote control has batteries; in the UK, a telly clicker contains batteries.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#56

Post by stronglikedan »

dmix wrote: post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

While I agree with most of what you're saying, I'm not sure suburbanization is a good example. Some people, like me, like the suburban lifestyle and thrive in it. Others prefer city or rural. When dealing with a matter of opinion, I'm not sure one can say that suburbanization "hurts" communities - anymore than any other type of zoning, at least.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#57

Post by irrational »

majormajor wrote: post #50
mytailorisrich wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

Root cause is a vague term. What's the root cause of people being corruptible, and how do you fix that ?

Put them in prison?

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#58

Post by wpietri »

jumpman500 wrote: post #46
wpietri wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

You're just thinking about one edge case. Any child is born into a hierarchy if they have a guardian of any sort. If you want to learn from a teacher you have to enter into a student teacher hierarchy. Any engagement with other human beings results in a formation of some kind of hierarchy. We all have different minds, bodies and skills that lead to different natural hierarchies.

I deeply disagree that "much of human government through most of human history" is an edge case. I do agree that families are somewhat naturally hierarchical, and that can be good. However, there are plenty of examples of that being taken too far. I disagree that teaching and learning can only be accomplished through hierarchy, although that's certainly the common mode in industrial education.

So it's as I said: we have to look at our natural heritage and decide which parts are good. Natural does not equal good.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#59

Post by verall »

wpietri wrote: post #41
jsjddbbwj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with hierarchies?

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

Careful, you're going to hear some lobster arguments...

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#60

Post by ploxolo »

wpietri wrote: post #41
jsjddbbwj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with hierarchies?

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

The opposite of hierarchies is not some blissful state of civilized anarchy, it is chaos, violence and free for all. If you think some leftist state is the solution, sorry for breaking it to you but they are highly hierarchical if not more than state tending toward classic liberalism. Most experiments in this vein have ended badly (millions dying), see communist China (now a hierarchical dictatorship btw), USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil (thankfully steering of peril right now).
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