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To get good, go after the metagame

commoncog.com

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Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#91

Post by floatrock »

Proziam wrote: post #50
ggambetta wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mastering the fundamentals will make you 'good' to a level that very few people ever reach. Can you clarify this? Is this because most people don't care about mastering the fundamentals in the first place? I can't tell whether I'm missing something and the idea is more complex, or that's what you're saying.

In my experience it comes down to two things: 1. People think they already have the fundamentals 'down' 2. Actually mastering the fundamentals can be boring and make a game feel like work (which, if you don't truly enjoy pushing the limits in a game, it is.) A totally random example from League of Legends. 99% of players go into game after game and literally never review their previous games. They will spam games but…

How much of this is data-driven? I mean, every shot can (in theory) be digitally logged and analyzed. Is there anyone doing a Moneyball-style player performance data analysis service? I hate to use the term, but an "AI coach"?

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#92

Post by bena »

gowld wrote: post #28
Proziam wrote: post #3

Getting good in almost all games is based on understanding and mastering the fundamentals to the extent that you can make consistently correct (or at least a high degree of 'correctness') decisions based on them. This is true for all esports titles, and probably all games in general. Mastering the fundamentals will make you 'good' to a level that very few people ever reach. It's not until you reach a level where ever…

IMO, if you get to the point where the metagame matters, unless you are getting paid to play professionally, or you love metagames for their own sake, you should stop or drop down to a lower level league. Replacing every game by its metagame, as some "board game geeks" tend to do, destroys the diversiry and value of inventing different games in the first place. "Scrabble is an area control game with a complicated res…

Your advice is bordering on "you're having fun wrong".

You are coming with the assumption that "fun" is some objective standard that is on a scale with "playing to win" on the other end.

For some people, playing to win and finding the metagame is the fun.

And there is nothing wrong with that. And too often I find that people who complain about people who are just "playing to win" are really just trying to complain about losing without seeming sore. The pattern is easy to spot, anything that causes them to lose is somehow "playing wrong" or not "fun". There's apparently some intangible, undefinable, nebulous quality being lost. But in reality, the only thing actually being lost is your chance to win.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#93

Post by clairity »

wilburTheDog wrote: post #67
mercer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this to be true for table tennis and other sports too. When I play against a less experienced player, it's quite frustrating to notice that most of the points I score are clear mistakes on their part, rather than any kind of skilled moves on my part.

Charles Ellis wrote a book(1) about that. He asserts that any professional sports competition is a winner's game - you win by successfully executing difficult plays and being better than your competition. But amateur sports is usually a loser's game - you win by not making as many mistakes as your competition. The book is about finance but the observation is universal. 1. https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Losers-Game-6t…

not having read the book, that seems insightful on the surface but isn’t particularly useful or actionable.

all it seems to be saying is that to become better, make fewer mistakes, with an implied exhortion to practice. is there more to it than that?

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#94

Post by floatrock »

streb-lo wrote: post #79
mangoman wrote: post #41

Interesting. I'm familiar with the meta as it relates to gaming (I follow SC2 pretty closely, though I basically never play anymore). I am curious to explore what the meta is as it relates to building web apps, or building software systems. I guess in web apps, the meta has evolved away from stateful and towards stateless applications, rigid to ephemeral infrastructure, and away from big kitchen sink frameworks towar…

You're using 'meta' as a synonym for popular. Metagame is the 'game outside the game' ie in rock paper scissors the game is trivial the metagame involves guessing what the opponent will pick. Meta-software-engineering would be things outside of your software stack that affect the overall process. People, sleep patterns, office layouts, commute time, corporate culture etc.

There's the classic "startup engineer" metagame: hop from startup to startup to build up an options portfolio. Stay until the 1-year cliff, exercise whatever options you get, and move on to the next one so you've hedged your bet over as many promising companies as possible.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#95

Post by streb-lo »

floatrock wrote: post #94
streb-lo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using 'meta' as a synonym for popular. Metagame is the 'game outside the game' ie in rock paper scissors the game is trivial the metagame involves guessing what the opponent will pick. Meta-software-engineering would be things outside of your software stack that affect the overall process. People, sleep patterns, office layouts, commute time, corporate culture etc.

There's the classic "startup engineer" metagame: hop from startup to startup to build up an options portfolio. Stay until the 1-year cliff, exercise whatever options you get, and move on to the next one so you've hedged your bet over as many promising companies as possible.

Yes that's a good one.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#96

Post by bena »

Aardwolf wrote: post #26

> Judo — the sport that I am most familiar with — has a metagame that is shaped by rule changes from the International Judo Federation. A few years after I stopped competing, the IJF banned leg grabs, outlawing a whole class of throws that were part of classical Judo canon It also has the metagame of carefully crafting your weight to optimally fit in your preferred weight class

I think that's true of every sport with a weight class. You want to be the heaviest guy in your classification.

I don't think that's metagaming so much as just simple min-maxing.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#97

Post by NoodleIncident »

richk449 wrote: post #34
wkey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is your definition? :)

I can think of two definitions: 1) a higher level of abstraction. For example, creating a class is programming. Creating a class factory (a class that creates classes) is meta programming. 2) self referential. The movie Adaption is meta, because it is about itself.

This article is about the metagame, which is derived from this meaning. It just gets confusingly shortened back to meta in some contexts

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#98

Post by marcus_holmes »

shadowsun7 wrote: post #19
marcus_holmes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same - the "choice of strategies" in Splendor is just that - strategy. The "meta game" would be the level above that.

In this instance, the metagame is the optimal strategy given your gaming group’s current strategic preferences. I’ve found that over time, the dominant tactics in Splendor for my group swing between build and buy. People do whatever is necessary to win. Tactics used 50 games ago go away and then get brought back. People hold grudges against others over old games, and act to disrupt each other. All of this can be pred…

You do see this in Chess, various openings fall in and out of favour over time. I guess you could call this "meta" - tactics change in line with strategy, strategies change in line with the meta game. But as GP says, I've always considered this as just "strategy".

Made me think, though. Thanks :)

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#99

Post by darkwizard42 »

floatrock wrote: post #94
streb-lo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using 'meta' as a synonym for popular. Metagame is the 'game outside the game' ie in rock paper scissors the game is trivial the metagame involves guessing what the opponent will pick. Meta-software-engineering would be things outside of your software stack that affect the overall process. People, sleep patterns, office layouts, commute time, corporate culture etc.

There's the classic "startup engineer" metagame: hop from startup to startup to build up an options portfolio. Stay until the 1-year cliff, exercise whatever options you get, and move on to the next one so you've hedged your bet over as many promising companies as possible.

Yes, excellent analogy!
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